Do Sleeping people make Will saves?

[Egres]

I believe that the text from evasion goes against that pretty well, but I definately prefer to allow a save under any conceivable circumstances. After all, they are heros right? Very strange things happen sometimes.

Why?

I think that Evasion's rules confirm these rules.

Why did they specify that you can't use Evasion if paralized, if you could not make a Reflex save?

 

[Scion]

SRD:
As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.


The 'as with' and then the example seem to make it say that a character with insufficient room cannot make a reflex save. 'Room to move' is open to interpretation but it does mention bound specifically which could also imply being helpless.

Also
SRD:
Dexterity: Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score can’t move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature automatically fails Reflex saves and Dexterity checks.

With the, 'effective dexterity of zero' from above implies something as well.

Of course, neither of these are conclusive, and I definately let people have reflex saves with an effective dex of 0, but I think that the rules can definately be read to say that the faq is wrong. Sadly enough the faq has a few other pretty major errors so this being in error would not be without precident.

 

[Egres]

SRD:
As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.


The 'as with' and then the example seem to make it say that a character with insufficient room cannot make a reflex save. 'Room to move' is open to interpretation but it does mention bound specifically which could also imply being helpless.

Also
SRD:
Dexterity: Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score can’t move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature automatically fails Reflex saves and Dexterity checks.

With the, 'effective dexterity of zero' from above implies something as well.

Of course, neither of these are conclusive, and I definately let people have reflex saves with an effective dex of 0, but I think that the rules can definately be read to say that the faq is wrong. Sadly enough the faq has a few other pretty major errors so this being in error would not be without precident.

But having an effective score of 0 is different from not having it at all.

 

[Scion]

Of course, hence why I said implies and one can conclude

 

[Scion]

an old thread:

thready thread

other thready thread

 

[Incenjucar]

Logically speaking, Ref saves should require mobility (otherwise it should be called a "Luck" save), while Will saves and Fort saves should always work. However, the actual text says that you're always willing when you're asleep, but can dodge fireballs in your sleep. So. Um.

WotC is on something.

 

[Egres]

Logically speaking, Ref saves should require mobility (otherwise it should be called a "Luck" save), while Will saves and Fort saves should always work. However, the actual text says that you're always willing when you're asleep, but can dodge fireballs in your sleep. So. Um.

WotC is on something.

Automatically willing doesn't mean that you can't make a Will save against Dominate Person.

I have some problems with this Psionic Power though:

Share Pain
Psychometabolism
Level: Psion/wilder 2
Display: Material and mental
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: You and one willing creature, or two willing creatures; see text
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Power Points: 3
This power creates a psychometabolic connection between you and a willing subject so that some of your wounds are transferred to the subject. You take half damage from all attacks that deal hit point damage to you, and the subject takes the remainder. The amount of damage not taken by you is taken by the subject. If your hit points are reduced by a lowered Constitution score, that reduction is not shared with the subject because it is not a form of hit point damage. When this power ends, subsequent damage is no longer divided between the subject and you, but damage already shared is not reassigned.
If you and the subject move farther away from each other than close range, the power ends.
You can manifest this power on two willing subjects, one of which you designate to share its damage with the other.

 

[Hawken]

Automatically willing doesn't mean that you can't make a Will save against Dominate Person.

Actually, yes, it does, unless that's just the way you run your own game.

Willing subjects don't get saving throws, Will or otherwise. That's why they're called willing subjects. That's the same reason willing subjects are not forced to make Will saves when on the receiving end of Cure spells. Saving throws are there to resist or avoid effects, if you are willing to subject yourself to the effect in question, then there's no saving throw to be made as you're not trying to avoid anything.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Willing subjects don't get saving throws, Will or otherwise. That's why they're called willing subjects.

No, there are two different things going on.

"Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing."

"Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality."

"(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires."

An unconscious character is automatically a willing target, but does not automatically voluntarily give up a saving throw.

Thus, you can automatically Levitate an unconscious creature, since they are willing, and the spell does not allow a save.

You can automatically use a Cure Light Wounds on an unconscious creature, since it is (harmless), and thus the save only applies if they choose to attempt it... and since they're unconscious, that's not a choice available to them.

You can't automatically Enlarge an unconscious creature, because it's not (harmless), and unless they voluntarily forego the save, it applies. Even though they're a willing creature, that's separate to voluntarily giving up a saving throw.

-Hyp.

 

[Hawken]

Willing subjects don't get saving throws, Will or otherwise

Ok. I wrote too quickly about the 'or otherwise' part.

However, in your argument, Enlarging an unconscious target is different than slapping a cure on them and not because one spell is harmless and the other isn't. A Cure is a Will save, so, they would automatically be subject to it while unconscious. An Enlarge spell is a Fort save, so they would get a save while unconscious whether they wanted one or not I would imagine.

You made your point on my mistake. I have no problems with unconscious targets getting a Fort save when allowed. And I agree fully that an unconscious person shouldn't get a Will save.

An unconscious character is automatically a willing target, but does not automatically voluntarily give up a saving throw.

How so, except in the case of Fortitude saves? An unconscious target would forego a Will save and be unable to make a Reflex save, but a Fort save, if allowed by spell or effect, should always be made unless the target consciously wishes to forego the save.

My only disagreement was with Egres stating that Reflex saves could be made while immobile. If that's his opinion and he wants to throw common sense (and a law or two of physics) out the window for his games, more power to him! But a helpless (immobile) target cannot avoid a CDG, why should they be allowed to make a Reflex save to avoid an incoming spell or other effect? Just because someone forgot to include, "Helpless or immobile targets cannot make Reflex saving throws," in the PHB or DMG?

That's no different than letting a character make a Reflex save when in a 10'X10'X10' empty room with no immediate exits or any kind of cover and a fireball detonates. Yeah, the spell description says he gets a reflex save, but that is because the writer of that spell is supposing that the targets are able to somehow get out of the area of effect, find cover or something.