Do some classes "need" magic items?

[doktorstick]

I would think that the Wizard is the MOST hurt by a lack of magic in a world... he would only be getting 2 spells per level in his book total... A lack of magic in a world would mean that he isn't finding any books adventuring (or isn't able to purchase any), and it would mean that there also wouldn't be any libraries for MAGICAL research either.

I think if I ran a no-magic world (Egads! I love magic!), Wizard as a class would not be allowed. Only those "mutants" that have innate abilities would have magic. And even then, that magic could not be transferred to scrolls.

/ds

 

[Oni]

I'm not convinced that any one class really needs magic items any more than another. After all, by the standard wealth guidelines, each class is supposed to have roughly as much magic - if everyone's getting the same, it cannot really be correcting an imbalance. Wizards and clerics depend as much on magical items, though they tend to choose different types of items. Take away a wizard's goojaws (no scrolls, no wands, no staves, nothing to help him carry those heavy books, nothing to boost his AC or saves) and he too starts having problems and vulnerabilities.

Remember, a spellcaster can do many things with magic, but he is limited in how many things he can do at once. He can only cast (and usually prepare) so many spells. If he doesn't have time, or has chosen the wrong spells, his abilities are as useless as the fighter without a magic sword against a critter with DR...

I am of the opinion that arms and armour are more important to fighting types than wands, scrolls, and staves are to spellcasters. Plus magic items allow spellcasters to do things that they can already via spells. But for non spellcasters having magic items allows them more often to do something they could not to at all before. i.e. a cloak of flying is fine for a wizard, but given a little preperation he could manifest the same ability without aid, however for a fighter it would be his only way to take to the skies and thus gain that problem solving tool. Magic items mean more to non spellcasting classes.

 

[Hammerhead]

Magic items are useful for both fighting and casting classes. However, they add new and, in some cases, essential powers to fighters, while they add endurance to casters.

A sorcerer wants those bracers of armor, rings of protection, rings of wizardry, etc. They help him alot, but all they really do is save him some spell slots. He could cast mage armor or other AC boosting spells to make up for the loss of his AC boosting items, and the loss of wizardry items means that he either has to be more stingy with spells, or fight less often. Either way, he does the same things with or without items.

On the other hand, a fighter gains abilities that he never had. Whether it's the ability to hit DR creatures, or items that increase his opportunity to use his melee ability - like flight items to hit flyers or guys up on walls, see invis items , etc. Also, while a fighter's main attack ability isn't limited in uses per day, he needs to be alive to use it. Sinec he's on the front line, magic items to boost AC are essential.

As pointed out previously, Clerics can be very problematic in a lower magic item setting. Their ability to buff combat related attributes, and use Greater Magic Weapon and Vestment spells means that someone could always be decked out with lots of magic effects. And since they won't have items that could boost their spells per day, they can't boost everyone up. Do you think they're going to cast all their spells on the fighter, save a handful for healing, and sit back to watch for the rest of the day? Probably not. At higher levels, the cleric will be running around with +5 weapons and armor, boosted attributes, and possibly divine favors and divine power. People talk about clerics being better fighters than fighters even with lots of magic items, and if the cleric is going to be the only one with good magic stuff, then he'll easily be more powerful.

 

[Umbran]

A sorcerer wants those bracers of armor, rings of protection, rings of wizardry, etc. They help him alot, but all they really do is save him some spell slots. He could cast mage armor or other AC boosting spells to make up for the loss of his AC boosting items, and the loss of wizardry items means that he either has to be more stingy with spells, or fight less often. Either way, he does the same things with or without items.

Um, logic failure - if he's fighting less often, or being stingy with spells, he's not doing the same thing without items as he would with them.

This is exactly my point - the caster doesn't (or at least shouldn't, if you're measuring your threats properly) have enough spell slots to do everything. Even if he does have the slots, if you're running your fights properly he shouldn't have the time to spare.

A caster with the usual load of magic items doesn't have as many choices to make - his own protection is partially handled before he casts a single spell. If he's smart, he's using items like wands and scrolls to store some of his offensive or defensive power ahead of time, leaving him the ability to pick and choose what spells he actually casts in combat with some breadth of possibilities and leisure.

A caster without magic items has issues - his AC, attack bonus, Reflex, and Fortitude saves probably stink. He doesn't have many hit points. Her doesn't have magic bolstering his spell-casting stat, either. He has only what he's got in spell power, and a small number of rounds in which to use it. If he spends time covering his own butt, he's not stopping the enemy. If he tries to whallop the enemy, he leaves himself open to attack.

Let us not confuse theory with practice - We say he can cast spell X, Y, and Z and thus be safe, but we say that knowing the threat, assuming he's prepared exactly the right spells, and has the time before the enemy gets to him. In a real adventure, the caster should rarely have those advantages.

 

[Hammerhead]

Any time the character can control the pacing, fighting less often isn't a big deal. Unload spells, retreat magically, rest, and repeat. At higher levels - when there's enough difference in # of items to make a decent difference - it's not that hard to use magic to get out of fights so you can rest. Spells like Rope trick let the group rest in somewhat hostile areas. With fewer magic items, the caster will prefer to buff up, move in, waste the target with a flurry of spells, and move out.

Also, even if the caster carefully rations his spells to last through multiple fights, there can be problems. He can save almost all his spells for the tough fight. Then he's not doing anything much early, but is dominant later. He's not doing anything intially, so he feels weak, and then the fighters feel weak later on, because their apparent role is simply to babysit the sorcerer until he reaches the leaders. Usefulness should be more balanced.

Also, I'd think a sorcerer, or perhaps a rare wizard, would be able to both cover himself and drop spells on the enemy. Mage Armor, Cat's Grace, and Endurance all cover the weaknesses you mention and last quite a long time. I've seen a wizard use Rary's Mneumonic Enhancer extensively, and end up with an impressive arsenal of low level spells. We'd run out of healing and duration on our other buffs before he'd run out of magic missiles.

 

[Umbran]

Also, I'd think a sorcerer, or perhaps a rare wizard, would be able to both cover himself and drop spells on the enemy. Mage Armor, Cat's Grace, and Endurance all cover the weaknesses you mention and last quite a long time. I've seen a wizard use Rary's Mneumonic Enhancer extensively, and end up with an impressive arsenal of low level spells. We'd run out of healing and duration on our other buffs before he'd run out of magic missiles.

Yes, those spells last a while. But, at low levels they don't last forever, and take up a significant portion of your spells for the day. At high levels, they don't run out, but the bonus is small compared to the challenges. He's hardly as protected as he would be if he had hefty Bracers of Armor and Cloak of resistance.

That guy using Rary's is nice, but he's giving up high level magics for low - often a losing proposition. Having used that Rary's, he now doesn't have that Dimension Door for the escape you mentioned.

And, if the PCs are consistently winning battles by retreating and recouping, then I suggest that the DM is forgetting that the enemy, in general, shouldn't be sitting around picking his nose while the PCs are gone. What's good for the goose is good for the gander - if the PCs can rest and recoup, so can the enemy.

As I said, there are tough choices here. Every spell he uses is a spell that won't be used for something else. Especially when you consider that even with buffing spells, without a magical armor bonus of some type, he's likely to get disrupted frequently, and will thus waste a notable number of spells...

 

[Hammerhead]

At low levels, the amount of magic items doesn't make a big difference. When I made a 6th level character, he had +1 plate, shield, and weapon, along with 2 CLW wands. I saved the rest. A few +1 things are no big deal - they're barely better than masterwork except for DR. Only at higher levels, when much more effective spells come into play, and characters are expected to have much better items - and spell ability - will magic items make a huge difference. Low level characters are going to have few enough items, and casters will have few enough spells that, with the right enemies, you could barely tell the difference.

A level 3 character with either good mundane gear or base magic is about the same. A level 6 character would be hindered somewhat in the same condition. A level 9 character could be facing 4th and 5th level spells, along with relatively high caster levels. Without gear, a fighter would operate with a substancial handicap. At 15th level, he'd be crippled.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

To answer the initial question: yes, some characters do need magic items.

In D&D, there are a number of ways to construct an effective fighter type character.

1. An archer--high strength and dex. Point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot, far shot, weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical. This build focusses on a very high damage output but is generally vulnerable in melee where most of its feats become useless. In addition, the usual lack of heavy armor and the necessary lack of a shield keep its armor class very low.

2. The Spring Attacker--good strength and high dex. Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon focus and specialization with a reach weapon, Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Knockdown. This build focusses on taking advantage of attacks of opportunity and preventing enemies from taking full attack routines by springing in and out of their reach. Its greatest weakness is that the mobility it favors make it difficult for a spring attack fighter to defend wizards, clerics, or other second rank characters. It is also weak if cornered since the lighter armor and usual lack of a shield keep its AC low.

3. The Damage machine--high strength, weapon focus and specialization with a two handed weapon (usually greataxe or greatsword, power attack, cleave, great cleave, and usually barbarian levels. Close Quarters Fighting is also recommended. This build focusses on dealing out as much damage as possible as quickly as possible. Its AC is often poor but it usually dishes out enough damage to fell any opponent in two or three rounds at most. That's usually quick enough that its opponents don't kill it. Its primary weakness is a party without high level curative magic and monsters that have rend or improved grab or whose damage reduction prevent it from dishing out damage quickly.

4. The defensive fighter. With a weapon and shield, this fighter may focus on a balance between offense and defense or may opt for all out defense. The difference is usually in the magic items since fighters have few non-magical ways to increase AC and have enough feats to have dodge, expertise, and several offensive chains.

5. The dual wielder. This is usually either a variant of the damage machine (longsword/shortsword, twin shortswords, or double sword), or the defensive fighter (bastard sword and shield+shield expert feat. It often adds damage with sneak attacks from rogue levels as well. Its weaknesses include the necessity to tumble about to get flanks which interferes with protecting second rank characters.

6. The Shield Wizard--This munchkinny variant (any of the above) takes one level of wizard or sorceror for the toad familiar (extra hit points) and the ability to use the shield spell (light armored fighters) or a wand/scrolls of shield (full plate armored fighters).

One thing you'll notice about this lineup: the only characters who are set up to actually defend the other party members are the Damage Machine (two handed and dual wield versions), the Shield Wizard, and the Defensive fighter. In my experience, about 1/3 of the fighter types I've adventured with are Damage Machines and 1/3 of them are Defensive fighters. Most barbarians and rangers try to be damage machines and most paladins are defensive fighters. Fighters are split pretty evenly between the two.

Why the discourse? Eliminating most magic items will make defensive fighters an impossible build by low to mid levels (4 to 6). By then, most foes will have attack bonusses ranging from +9 (Monster Manual trolls) to +15 (raging barbarians with weapon focus and a masterwork weapon). An armor class of 22 (fullplate +dex 12+large shield+dodge feat) is barely sufficient to keep enemies from power attacking at that level. It's certainly not enough to keep characters alive long enough to defeat their damage maximized foes. Now the normal defensive fighter of these levels should have a +1 shield and possibly +1 fullplate (for AC 24) and by level 6 will often have an amulet of natural armor and possibly a +2 shield for an AC of 26. That's a high enough AC for expertise to be useful and for foes to have trouble hitting. Without the magic, it's just not possible to boost AC to the point that a character can mount an effective defense.

So, the net effect of scarce magic items for fighter types will be to eliminate the defensive fighter archetype and to encourage the Shield Wizard (the only way to get a reasonable AC).

At high levels, fighters and rogues need armor even more and definitely need magic weapons to overcome DR.

Even more significantly, all characters (except maybe paladins and monks) need saving throw boosts. After all, the minimum DC for a 6th level spell is 19. DCs of 22 (high int) to 26 (high int and greater spell focus) for spells are very common. Since even characters' strong saves are rarely more than +9 without magic (or multiclassing) by 10th level, characters who hope to contend with creatures like Umber hulks (save every round or be confused), mummies, wraiths and shadow mastiffs need to have items that boost their saves if they're going to live through several encounters.

Furthermore, by high levels, all characters need to be able to cope with a multitude of situations. They should expect their opponents to plane shift, polymorph, use improved invisibility, fly and haste, have iron body, spell resistance, deal 10d10 fire damage to anything that touches them, and explode for 10d6 damage when killed. Wizards and clerics have the spells to compensate for this somewhat (and they can make their own darn magic items if they really need them). Fighters and rogues need to rely on magic items for those abilities. If they don't have them, the first sorceror they run into with fly and protection from arrows will slaughter them.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm thinking of putting together a campaign with almost no magic items in it but I'm afraid this might unbalance the classes. If I don't introduce any house rules to compenstate, will class balance be destroyed? Or will everyone suffering equally keep things in line?

You could do worse than check out the "Wheel of Time" d20 rules, since it is a setting with a greatly reduced number of magic using classes (and magic abilities), and a vastly reduced number of magical items. There are some really nice campaign "wrinkles" to it too.

Certainly worth checking out.

Cheers

 

[Darklone]

I don't agree with whoever said that spellcasters need magic items too.

If noone has some, the spellcasters rock a lot.