Do the initiative rules discourage parley?

[Gomez]

Is a damage roll or a saving throw an ability check in the game? No.

Do you roll damage and saving throws when you are threatened or distracted? Yes.

So according to both of these rules, you cannot Take 20 for damage rolls or saving throws. In fact, you cannot Take 20 in combat at all.

An initiative roll, on the other hand, is an ability check. However, you roll initiative when you are threatened or distracted, so you still cannot Take 20 on an initiative roll.

Care to try again?

Checks without Rolls
A skill check represents an attempt to accomplish some goal, usually while under some sort of time pressure or distraction. Sometimes, though, a character can use a skill under more favorable conditions and eliminate the luck factor.

Taking 10: When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.

Taking 20:When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20. Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take. Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.

Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks: The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to caster level checks.

You are right as in an initiative check is a Dexterity check. So why roll at all then. Every one should take 20 on their initaitive at the beginning of every combat. How long does taking 20 on your initiative take? One full round? 2 Minutes?

There was the Refocus in 3.0 but you will see that it is no longer in 3.5.

Plus, wouldn't you consider starting combat as being threatened?

Also, you can make a saving throw while not being threatened. Like a saving throw vs poison.

 

[moritheil]

As for the parley, I'm happy for it to be interrupted by violence and perhaps continue after someone is defeated. As a DM I will not actively compensate for blood thirsty action that deprives the PC's of any vital information, that is too bad and no doubt can positively feed into another story arc. I figure that if I keep the consequences real and don't abuse speeches, they will be savioured as the treat they are.

A man after my own heart. PCs don't listen? Petunias take over the multiverse.

 

[moritheil]

Does anyone know what book has the Hobo prestige class in it. I have a fighter/rogue that would love to take some levels in it.

Just for you, I took a crack at it. I incorporated things from this discussion as they came to me.

Note that I do not condone real life violence involving hobos.

 

[werk]

You cannot ready an action if he stops being flat-footed. He cannot stop himself from no longer being flat-footed.

This is a game condition, not a game action.

This is like readying an action for when someone else's initiative comes up. Initiative is a metagaming concept that a character within the game cannot perceive or know.

This is my point of contention as well.

The question that comes to my mind is why would you want to delay or ready against a flat-footed opponent? If you are readying to run away, go now and get a head-start, anything else, you're better off just dropping it on him while he's unprepared. If you are readying to disrupt casting, then why not say so?

I guess I really don't see the benefit of the arguement as is. Please help.

 

[KarinsDad]

You are right as in an initiative check is a Dexterity check. So why roll at all then. Every one should take 20 on their initaitive at the beginning of every combat. How long does taking 20 on your initiative take? One full round? 2 Minutes?

Irrelevant. An initiative check is still done when you are distracted or threatened, hence, Take 20 cannot apply.

There was the Refocus in 3.0 but you will see that it is no longer in 3.5.

Plus, wouldn't you consider starting combat as being threatened?

Also, you can make a saving throw while not being threatened. Like a saving throw vs poison.

Irrelevant. A saving throw is still NOT an ability check, hence, Take 20 cannot apply.

Plus, I consider poison pretty threatening as well.

 

[Nail]

The question that comes to my mind is why would you want to delay or ready against a flat-footed opponent?

The title of this thread should clear that question up.

 

[Particle_Man]

The best "villain" speech I ever read was the Joker's in Alan Moore's "The Killing Joke". There, the joker was broadcasting his speech through the corridors that the Batman was travelling through.

Maybe do the same, via magic (Magic Mouth, for the prepared villain) as the characters enter a corridor. If nothing else, they might be put off by a speech "Oh no! We have been discovered!" or have the speech say "I will leave you a clue as to how to deactivate the secret trap at the end of this speech...blah, blah, blah...oh, I lied! Mwah-ha-ha-ha-ha! You cannot see me, but I am doing the milking the cow villain action as I laugh!"

 

[Bojangles]

New spell: protection from player characters
Level: Villain -1
Components: V
Casting time: Immediate action
Range: Personal
Duration: Monologue
Spell Resistance: no
Saving throw: none

lets a villain finsih his monologue before combat. All players frozen in place except for possible witty retorts.

"You sly dog! You caught me monologuing!"

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

What the?

Howdy folks. 4 pages and many examples later I feel compelled to post this.

Perhaps y'all are looking at the wrong thing. The question before you is 'when does combat start'.

Consider this. The group sneaks up on a Hobo sleeping at a campfire. The draw weapons and whatnot preparing to dastardly slaughter said Hobo in his sleep.
Then, Joe steps on a twig, waking the Hobo.
The Hobo, now being aware of the enemy at hand, *intiatates combat*.
Spot checks, to which the PC's should get hefty bonuses to.
Surprise round if any of the PC's failed to notice the Hobo's sudden intent on combat.
Normal Initiative rounds.

Now, can the DM require phased movement/actions by the PC prior to the 'start of combat'? Sure. The better to set the stage. But combat itself has not started yet. As such, you can parley, ambush, etc.. but cannot ready actions. Prepare for? Sure. Expect? Sure. Keep a close eye out (bonus to not being surprised )? Sure.
I also HR a 'delay' in this pre-combat phased time, where a character can say 'I wait for Joe to move, then I will act'. This allows the party to stack and do room clearing style techniques, with the team supporting each other. The disadvantage is that if Joe misses his que, the entire team losses out. {if their initiative roll was higher, they drop to right behind Joe in the battle order, and can act in the surprise round if Joe acts.} Makes for really nasty ambushes when it works.

I have a table rule that sets this concept up with my players. They know that the first instants prior to combat may be spent with parley/speech. They also know that the parley/speech does not invalidate any ambush or surprise attacks. Works quite well.

If the DM uses control of when combat starts, the whole ready/flatfooted deal never comes into play. You cannot ready an action outside of combat. Readying an action in a surprise round is generally pointless unless you intend on disrupting a spellcaster.
If that happens, based on what the sequence of actions, you may or may not be able to take advantage of your opponents condition of 'flat-footed'. A Readied action, as many people have quoted, occurs before the triggering action. If thier first action is the trigger, they still are flatfooted.

Before everyone yells and screams {more} about how unfair this is. Consider.. during a surprise round or at a higher initiative in the first round of combat, the character chose to not strike a flatfooted opponent in exchange for maybe being able to strike a flatfooted opponent on thier action. This won't really come up in play very often anyway.
A number of posters have agreed that 'flat-footed' is realistic for the purposes of a game.


Anyway, to wrap this all up, the DM needs to control when 'combat starts' in order to allow parley and ambushings. Failure to do so teaches the players to attack first and 'speak with dead' later. Let your players know that the game rules of combat can allow for ambush advantage even tho you stop to talk. Its all a matter of defining the start of combat as *not* being the moment the parties involved lay eye on each other.

Okay, I go back to my hiding place now

 

[ThirdWizard]

Consider this. The group sneaks up on a Hobo sleeping at a campfire. The draw weapons and whatnot preparing to dastardly slaughter said Hobo in his sleep.
Then, Joe steps on a twig, waking the Hobo.
The Hobo, now being aware of the enemy at hand, *intiatates combat*.
Spot checks, to which the PC's should get hefty bonuses to.
Surprise round if any of the PC's failed to notice the Hobo's sudden intent on combat.
Normal Initiative rounds.

You would have the possibility of the PCs being surprised when they're the ones sneaking up on someone?

I'd allow it if the Hobo had ranks in bluff (or hey, made a charisma check) and managed to beat all their opposed Sense Motives to pretend to be asleep, waiting until they were up on him to jump 'em. You see that on TV/movies/books enough that it makes sense cinematically. That's one heck of a hobo, though.