Do the PCs ever die in these playtest reports?

[Celebrim]

Personally, I think its because you are dealing with (for the most part) highly experienced players.

I know from my experience that there was a big difference in the amount of challenge my friends could handle as players, and the amount of challenge that random kids could handle on an open table night at the gaming store. There is a certain amount of skill involved.

If the party doesn't lose cohesion, if the players don't become confused or paniced, and if the players make the best use of the resources that they have available, no deaths is the expected result for a game in the 'sweet spot' of any edition. We know they've taken some steps to up the power level of low level characters. We know that they've taken out 'save or die'. So with an experienced play group, I think you can expect no deaths to occur.

Two takes on that, one positive and one negative.

First, it says something good about the system that DM's without alot of experience with the system can present balanced challenges quite easily. We know that they are balanced challenges because we aren't hearing about a lot of player deaths, and even those skeptical about the new system (like me) have to admit that the early reports on how engrossing combat is are very positive.

On the other hand, given how much they've 'nerfed' the danger of the game by removing dangerous conditions and attacks from the game, and the change in the relative ratio of damage per round to hit points (something incidently I largely approve of), the move away from 'operational' resource management toward purely tactical challenges, as a DM I'm wondering how you'd actually seriously threaten an experienced party. It doesn't seem like there is much that can go wrong for a player provided that the team doesn't make really dumb mistakes. This was actually a bit of a problem in 1st edition, in as much as the only way to really threaten a high level 1st edition party with experienced players (and by high level, I mean 'above 10th') was to spam them with random 'save or die' attacks and wait for random failure. Otherwise, the players tended to mow over ordinary challenges because the rules were all heavily weighted in thier favor by that point. Third editions removal of the rules separation between PC and NPC (among other things) tended to mitagate that.

 

[HP Dreadnought]

On the whole "running away" thing.

Does anyone actually ever run away? Maybe between 1st and 3rd level, but, after that? I've never seen a party run away. If this is a long tradition of D&D, it's one I've certainly missed out on.

Actually, I found running away to be a more prevalent tactic in previous editions of the game. Mostly it happened at higher levels where there was ready access to escape magics. When party members started dropping, the survivors would grab the bodies and run.

I haven't seen too much of it since 3.0. Maybe escape magics aren't as prevalent? Doesn't seem right. Maybe the combats are so lethal that once somebody dies, the rest follow shortly after. . . not sure.

But yes, running away was a tactic frequently used at one time. . . they hated it though when the enemies followed them.

 

[Fenes]

I usually challenge high levle PCs not with deadly combat, but with having to achieve objectives such as save X, or prevent Y from falling into the enemies' hands, and so on. Sure, they might be easily able to avoid death for themselves, but what when they have to protect the heir to the throne from getting killed? Or stop a ritual in time?

 

[Peter LaCara]

Basically, what I am getting at is that, while these big, nasty combats were interesting at first, it would also be nice to see some normal combats, some regular fights with some regular critters that don't pose much of a threat. Just some normalcy would be nice. I don't know about you, but sometimes, a fist-fight in an alley is just that, and doesn't need to be spiced up with an erupting volcano in the background, or what-have-you.

I disagree. There should be no such thing as a "normal" fight. I try to follow the action movie style philosophy of fights in that every single fight should have something interesting going on to set it apart from the other fights that have taken place, otherwise what's the point?

Let's look at Lord of the Rings as an example. Nearly every fight is one sort of desperate struggle or another. Aragorn vs. the Ringwraiths on Weathertop. The Mines of Moria (two PCs killed! Though they both spent action points to survive). The Breaking of the Fellowship and Boromir's death. Even the closest thing the movies had to a random encounter (the warg attack in the Two Towers), ends with a PC falling off a cliff (probably spending another action point to not die).

Now, I usually run D&D like this, but that means that nearly every fight I throw at my PCs is actually CR+3 or +4 relevant to their abilities. If 4e provides combats like this as the default, I will be a very happy DM indeed.

 

[pemerton]

I want rules where character's death is really rare, but at the same time I want rules where players and their characters fear death everytime the roll initiative, open a dungeon door or sit at the game table.

Is it possible or is it really up to the guy behind the screen?

It is highly possible, at least in principle, provided that certain constraints hold true.

Consider: when a strong student sits a hard exam, they fear failing. But (given their strength) they have very little chance of failing.

To apply the analogy: a system in which PC success is very likely, provided that the players have to work hard at applying their power suites to the combat, will produce the fear of death but will not result in very much death.

To achieve this, what the desingers need to do is to come up with well-designed suites of powers - ones which can be mastered, but don't quickly become trivial to apply - and well-designed monsters - ones which pose a challenge that requires player effort to be overcome, but which are apt to be overcome by the power suites the players have at their disposal.

We know what won't work to achieve this goal: a combat system that just pits player dice rolls against GM dice rolls. Such a system brings it all down to luck. Hence, one reason (I assume) why the new edition gives powers to fighters as well as wizards. To get the sort of play you described, players have to have the resources to make their own luck.

 

[Irda Ranger]

A bugbear strangler popped out from behind a tapestry to garotte the ranger. The fighter/rogue ran to attack the strangler, the bugbear swung the ranger up as a living shield, and one crit later we had a dead ranger.

I want to know more about the garrote; and more generally, strangling. This is a very common form of combat/violent death that D&D's HP model does not support well. Here's hoping that "choke 'em out" is part of the new grapple mechanic.

And thematically, I really like the idea of the bugbear strangler. Assuming they keep their stealthy nature from previous editions (and picturing that really strong looking goblinoid from Worlds & Monsters), that is something I would not want to tango with in a back alley.

I am notorious for my horrid DM dice rolling luck.

Hey look, I have something in common with mearls! I usually have to bump CR's up 2-3 points to make up for my regular habit of never using the top third of the d20's range.

 

[Rechan]

I want to know more about the garrote; and more generally, strangling. This is a very common form of combat/violent death that D&D's HP model does not support well. Here's hoping that "choke 'em out" is part of the new grapple mechanic.

Indeed.

Choking, a lot like drowning, just seems to take forever on paper.

And thematically, I really like the idea of the bugbear strangler. Assuming they keep their stealthy nature from previous editions (and picturing that really strong looking goblinoid from Worlds & Monsters), that is something I would not want to tango with in a back alley.

Think this is different than the Bugbears in the Biggie Smalls update where the Bugbear basically seem like neanderthals/thugs that kick you in the ribs when you're down?

I'm curious about the flavor of the Bugbear here.

 

[Jhaelen]

Actually, I found running away to be a more prevalent tactic in previous editions of the game. Mostly it happened at higher levels where there was ready access to escape magics. When party members started dropping, the survivors would grab the bodies and run.

I haven't seen too much of it since 3.0. Maybe escape magics aren't as prevalent? Doesn't seem right. Maybe the combats are so lethal that once somebody dies, the rest follow shortly after. . . not sure.

It doesn't happen often, but happen it does. It's when the pcs realize they're in over their heads.

In my campaign the last time it happened was when the party was camping for the night when 8 mummies approached them. The effective average party level was 6, so it was an overpowering encounter. Two pcs died in the encounter, the rest managed to flee after destroying about half of the mummies (actually there was a moment when they seemed to win against all odds).

I guess part of the problem is the increased lethality: A battle can turn incredibly quickly. Often, after a key pc goes down, things turn ugly before anyone can act. And once about 50% of a party have died, the ususal sentiment is: 'let's go down in glory' even if one (or more) of them would have a good chance of getting away. Most players prefer a clean TPK to having to deal with a half-dead party.

 

[med stud]

I think the biggest problem with running is that many opponents are faster than the PCs. If you are a dwarf with MV 20 there aren't many things you can outrun.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I like a system where it's somewhat difficult to kill PC's. Then as a DM, you can take off the "kid gloves" and hit 'em with bold tactics and tough encounters. Then if the PC's die, they can't blame you for making the combat "impossible" as they had plenty of time to figure out that they were in trouble.


FItz