Do the rules need to?

[Tequila Sunrise]

What extra prep time?

It takes minimal effort on a DM's part- on the fly- to have the party encounter a guardhouse's squad's replacements discover they've all been slaughtered at their posts...and are waiting for the SoB's that did it (especially for an organized force). Or that the noise of combat has drawn other creatures to the site of the last conflict.

No, the 5 MWD isn't so much a problem in D&D's typical dungeon/castle environment, where there are obvious risks with resting for hours. What I'm talking about are those environments where enemy reinforcements really don't make sense -- or at least strain credulity.

For example, I'm prepping the first encounter of my next adventure. The party has just returned from a demon-infested dungeon, weighed down with well-earned booty. Soon after their arrival in Lordsport, their long-time home base, they're going to be ambushed by one of the PC's drow sisters. Now, I don't really want this encounter to be extra long or extra dangerous; just a "Gah, wth are you doing here?!" situation. It'll get really scary later.

But because the PCs have no reason to hold their nukes back -- this is their home turf after all, which makes reinforcements unlikely -- common sense dictates that they nova. So I have to pad the encounter to make it more than a cakewalk. It's not exactly a Greek tragedy, but the RAW isn't making my job any easier either.

 

[ExploderWizard]

The biggest problem in 3e was how easy it was to destroy consequences. Rope Trick, easy and painless mass teleport, unbeatable invisible houses - wizards had a wide variety of tricks that let them ensure they could rest unmolested. It was no longer dangerous to rest in the dungeon. This is what truly created the fifteen minute day - giving wizards the power to openly disregard the ages old advice of "Don't rest in the dungeon."

Rope Trick has been around since at least 1E (1st printing PHB 1978) if not earlier.

Just as many people have reported no issues with the 15 min day in 3E as those that did so it would appear to be playstyle thing rather than specific mechanics.

It is only smart to want to be at your most effective whenever possible. It is the duty of the DM to make sure that sometimes such decisions are not so easy to make. If fully resting before doing anything is always the best option then expect players to do it.

 

[Argyle King]

I think sandboxes are more vulnerable to 15MD-ing than adventure paths, for two reasons:

1) In an AP the bad guys typically have an evil plan that will result in really bad stuff happening soon. This time limit puts pressure on the PCs, stopping them from resting overly much. In a sandbox the bad guys' evil plans typically result in only somewhat bad stuff happening, nothing world destroying, so there's less pressure. And the PCs are usually more mercenary, more Cugel or Conan than Frodo, so they don't care about somewhat bad stuff happening unless it will cost them mazoolah.

2) In a sandbox the players are free to choose the adventure. They may always choose to assault tombs, ancient treasure vaults and the like, which, as has been mentioned upthread, have no negative consequences for 15MD-ing. Indeed in a recent thread more than one poster recommended the 15MD as a tactic for dealing with the classic Tomb of Horrors module, partly to ensure the scout always had a fly spell active, I think.

I strongly disagree with #2. Sandbox does not equal static world.

It depends on the degree with which the 15mwd can be utilized.

In non-3e editions, this was very limited. Throw out all your spells in a single fight at higher levels and try to rest, and you still have that chance of a monster creeping up on you. Resting in the dungeon was always dangerous no matter what, so you'd typically try to avoid doing so.

In 4e, the nova is more or less gone. While you can burn all your dailies in a single fight, it doesn't cripple you to the point of requiring an immediate rest. Furthermore, dailies, while strong, are not the equivalent of higher level spells. The players are actually rewarded for pushing on without a rest if peril is imminent. And of course, it's still dangerous to sleep in the dungeon.

The biggest problem in 3e was how easy it was to destroy consequences. Rope Trick, easy and painless mass teleport, unbeatable invisible houses - wizards had a wide variety of tricks that let them ensure they could rest unmolested. It was no longer dangerous to rest in the dungeon. This is what truly created the fifteen minute day - giving wizards the power to openly disregard the ages old advice of "Don't rest in the dungeon."

The problem you mention with 3e still exists in 4e. Magic Circle and various other rituals can be used in the same way that Rope Trick was used in 3e. There are several very cheap magic items which can also be used, and some classes have powers already built into them which can be used to get a rest.

I'd actually say that (in some regards) the problem is highlighted more in 4e due to the fact that all classes now have something of a Vancian casting model behind the a/e/u/d set up.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

However, I don't think rules to stop the 15MWD cold will ever exist. And in some cases, for some playstyles, it's a bad idea. For example, if the players had been playing well and smart - and reached a point in the adventure where it sounded like a good idea for players to rest and recharge there abilities, I don't feel I should be forced to roll for random encounters while they do so.

I do think, however, that advice - and discussion with both the players and DM about the 15MWD and what can be used to minimize or negate it is beneficial.

I mostly agree with this. I do think there is room for some support from actual rules to at least discourage habitual novas. But I think any such support that worked by itself would be a totally unnecessary imposition on everyone, never mind the people that didn't have the issue at all.

So basically, I'm in favor of any such rules that are simple, don't take up much space in the books, don't take up much space in the players' minds, etc. and help out. The perfect is definitely not the enemy of the good here.

There will always be a requirement from the DM to mitigate the rough edges on this issue, because time is not a quality that we typically want heavily regulated in an RPG. If time is out there for us to manage, then things that are time sensitive have different system support requirements than things that aren't.

Actually, I think one could probably make a fairly nifty RPG where the players had feedback loops to handle time as a resource. But if you did, you'd need to leave some other resource to the DM, and it certainly wouldn't be D&D.

 

[Bagpuss]

That a DM chooses to put the world on pause and let his players' retreat to recharge distorts this reality.

Problem is after about 8th level with Rope Trick you never need to retreat.