Do We Really Need Half-Elves and Half-Orcs?

[Henry]

I agree wholeheartedly about the discussion ahead of time in a session zero.

Making a change like bringing back all the eliminated races? That's something that would have a much larger impact. Just the gnomes? Or even just one gnome? Not so much. Perhaps it does diminish Nibenay to some extent, but plenty of the sorcerer kings failed in their genocides. I don't really think much less of Borys because dwarves are still around. And do the PCs even know about that? And is there some way to make the gnome present without making Nibenay having failed, if that matters to the DM? Perhaps a mutation by the Pristine Tower? Pretty simple, and using an element that already exists in the setting.

I can actually imagine MORE horror if one gnome had survived, via due to a ritual, or a magical stasis (or literally the Imprisonment or Temporal Stasis spells), to come out of stasis in Athas to find that they are literally the last of their kind. Like the Rip van Winkle/Captain America/Connecticut Yankee trope, they are haunted by memories of verdant oases, small and poisoned but still existent streams, small gatherings of their people playing and having fun, and every bit of it is gone and every reference point they ever knew gone, depending on the kindness of the strangers (PCs) they find themselves with.

Then imagine Nibenay finding out that a gnome still LIVES? (maybe after about 6th or 7th level or so, when the PC has sufficient skills to protect themselves and successfully run or hide) Imagine the hunter's desire after finding out that you didn't, indeed, catch every Pokemon? And imagine the role play possibilities in dealing with that, and finding what you could offer the Sorcerer-king to stay his hand, or seeking the resources to thwart the Sorcerer-king for good, if your campaign goes that way?

 

[WaterRabbit]

I can actually imagine MORE horror if one gnome had survived, via due to a ritual, or a magical stasis (or literally the Imprisonment or Temporal Stasis spells), to come out of stasis in Athas to find that they are literally the last of their kind. Like the Rip van Winkle/Captain America/Connecticut Yankee trope, they are haunted by memories of verdant oases, small and poisoned but still existent streams, small gatherings of their people playing and having fun, and every bit of it is gone and every reference point they ever knew gone, depending on the kindness of the strangers (PCs) they find themselves with.

Then imagine Nibenay finding out that a gnome still LIVES? (maybe after about 6th or 7th level or so, when the PC has sufficient skills to protect themselves and successfully run or hide) Imagine the hunter's desire after finding out that you didn't, indeed, catch every Pokemon? And imagine the role play possibilities in dealing with that, and finding what you could offer the Sorcerer-king to stay his hand, or seeking the resources to thwart the Sorcerer-king for good, if your campaign goes that way?

So now you have created a campaign where one player has the spotlight and all of the rest are the sidekicks. Because if you run this storyline about the last gnome it will become the dominant storyline. Also you have now created an incentive for intraparty conflict. It would sure be tempting as another member of the party to create a betrayal so that the gnome get killed or captured.

 

[hawkeyefan]

So now you have created a campaign where one player has the spotlight and all of the rest are the sidekicks. Because if you run this storyline about the last gnome it will become the dominant storyline. Also you have now created an incentive for intraparty conflict. It would sure be tempting as another member of the party to create a betrayal so that the gnome get killed or captured.

That’s not necessarily true at all.

There’s no reason that a character having a story arc means that must be the sol story arc for the game, or that the other characters become sidekicks in that main story. There are many ways to weave multiple stories for multiple characters and have them connect in compelling ways.

There’s also no reason to expect the party to want to turn the gnome in. At least no more than they’d want to turn in a preserver or any other kind of outlaw.....and many PCs have a strong chance of becoming outlaws of some sort during a Dark Sun game. So yeah....that’s not really a strong argument.

 

[WaterRabbit]

That’s not necessarily true at all.

There’s no reason that a character having a story arc means that must be the sol story arc for the game, or that the other characters become sidekicks in that main story. There are many ways to weave multiple stories for multiple characters and have them connect in compelling ways.

There’s also no reason to expect the party to want to turn the gnome in. At least no more than they’d want to turn in a preserver or any other kind of outlaw.....and many PCs have a strong chance of becoming outlaws of some sort during a Dark Sun game. So yeah....that’s not really a strong argument.

Not necessarily true for most character story arcs. But the arc you have suggested will suck all of the oxygen out of the other character arcs if taken to its logical conclusion. The last surviving gnome? Yep, that is a going to be a big deal in a world like Dark Sun. As a player I would definitely have a compelling reason to turn in that gnome unless there were strong personal hooks to the character.

If you have ever watched "Firefly" this is exactly the type of arc a character like Jayne would fall for (turning in the Doctor and River for profit). It immediately jumped into my mind when I read your story idea. The River on the run story arc dominated the Firefly and Serenity.

Every civilized area the gnome will draw attention to it without extensive use of disguises. It will always have to be on every character's mind to not accidentally slip up. Will it dominate every session, no. But anytime the last precious and unique gnome interacts with NPCs it will come up.

You have created a character flaw - Hunted: By Large Organization with high resources and high frequency - in the parlance of other RPGs. Once the identity is discovered NPCs will try to sell the information for resources or favor. It would be to the other PCs advantage to do the same.

But yeah you can hand wave any argument away with the phrase "So yeah....that’s not really a strong argument." Or maybe you aren't interested in the implications such an arc creates?

 

[Gammadoodler]

That’s not necessarily true at all.

There’s no reason that a character having a story arc means that must be the sol story arc for the game, or that the other characters become sidekicks in that main story. There are many ways to weave multiple stories for multiple characters and have them connect in compelling ways.

There’s also no reason to expect the party to want to turn the gnome in. At least no more than they’d want to turn in a preserver or any other kind of outlaw.....and many PCs have a strong chance of becoming outlaws of some sort during a Dark Sun game. So yeah....that’s not really a strong argument.

This is pretty much all social contract stuff. Can the "last gnome" player share and pass the spotlight? Can they demonstrate that they've thought about how their "last gnome" fits into the setting? If they can show that they're putting the work in, and you can trust how they are at the table, it seems like you've checked the boxes. And really, that applies to all the players at the table.

If you trust that your players have an idea for how they fit into the world and that the players will play well together, what's the problem? The DM is responsible for controlling the spotlight after all.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Not necessarily true for most character story arcs. But the arc you have suggested will suck all of the oxygen out of the other character arcs if taken to its logical conclusion. The last surviving gnome? Yep, that is a going to be a big deal in a world like Dark Sun. As a player I would definitely have a compelling reason to turn in that gnome unless there were strong personal hooks to the character.

I don't expect that it must suck all the oxygen out of the other character arcs. I didn't say the last gnome wouldn't be a big deal (although I did say how it could be made to not be a big deal....Pristine Tower mutation). But there can be big deals for multiple characters, and this is true in any setting and any game. So to me, this is more about how the DM and players handle spotlight sharing and the like.
[MENTION=6914290]Gammadoodler[/MENTION] explained it perfectly in his reply.

If you have ever watched "Firefly" this is exactly the type of arc a character like Jayne would fall for (turning in the Doctor and River for profit). It immediately jumped into my mind when I read your story idea. The River on the run story arc dominated the Firefly and Serenity.

Yes, it was a big story. And yet would you say that the other characters had nothing to do? Was Mal a sidekick? Did Jayne ever actually turn them in?

Having interparty conflict isn't inherently bad. And like I said, it's possible in any myriad of games. One player having their character say "we should turn this gnome thing over to the Templars" may be disruptive at one table, or it may be a great dramatic moment at another.

Again, this is more about the players and the DM and how they handle such elements.

Every civilized area the gnome will draw attention to it without extensive use of disguises. It will always have to be on every character's mind to not accidentally slip up. Will it dominate every session, no. But anytime the last precious and unique gnome interacts with NPCs it will come up.

You mean like a preserver? Or a freed slave? Or anyone else who's crossed the Templars? Or any number of other character concepts for Dark Sun, a world where those in power are evil and corrupt?

What you're describing sounds to me like tension....drama.....fodder for good games. The DM can use this to help make dramatic moments, and to help craft challenges for the characters.

And if everyone at the table found it that unenjoyable, then just start having the gnome mistaken for a halfling, and get on with the game. Simple.

You have created a character flaw - Hunted: By Large Organization with high resources and high frequency - in the parlance of other RPGs. Once the identity is discovered NPCs will try to sell the information for resources or favor. It would be to the other PCs advantage to do the same.

I've created this flaw? Do you not think that this concept has been used in games before? If so, were all those games one where one player was the main star and everyone else was ancillary?

But yeah you can hand wave any argument away with the phrase "So yeah....that’s not really a strong argument." Or maybe you aren't interested in the implications such an arc creates?

I didn't handwave. I explained exactly why your argument wasn't strong. It's because everything you are attributing to the gnome character, and to the DM and players in that game, can be attributed to any number of other characters in the setting (preservers, freed slaves, outlaws, etc.), and to other DMs and players telling other stories in other games.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Not necessarily true for most character story arcs. But the arc you have suggested will suck all of the oxygen out of the other character arcs if taken to its logical conclusion. The last surviving gnome? Yep, that is a going to be a big deal in a world like Dark Sun. As a player I would definitely have a compelling reason to turn in that gnome unless there were strong personal hooks to the character.

If you have ever watched "Firefly" this is exactly the type of arc a character like Jayne would fall for (turning in the Doctor and River for profit). It immediately jumped into my mind when I read your story idea. The River on the run story arc dominated the Firefly and Serenity.

Every civilized area the gnome will draw attention to it without extensive use of disguises. It will always have to be on every character's mind to not accidentally slip up. Will it dominate every session, no. But anytime the last precious and unique gnome interacts with NPCs it will come up.

You have created a character flaw - Hunted: By Large Organization with high resources and high frequency - in the parlance of other RPGs. Once the identity is discovered NPCs will try to sell the information for resources or favor. It would be to the other PCs advantage to do the same.

But yeah you can hand wave any argument away with the phrase "So yeah....that’s not really a strong argument." Or maybe you aren't interested in the implications such an arc creates?

There are a few things here.

1. Does the "last x" character suck all the life out of other character arcs?
It's pretty easy to think of it as a big deal when viewing it at a macro level, but on a day to day basis, I'd expect that most people are more concerned with their own survival, needs, and desires than they are curious about the little fellow with the crazy ears. Curiosity tends to be a luxury for people who don't have other pressing needs to occupy their time and attention.

That is..unless decides that the world is filled with curious NPCs who also have a full and complete grasp of the worlds history and the possible implications that stem from the little fellow with the crazy ears.

In addition, presumably, the other players' characters also have needs and desires which likely carry greater personal weight than the contemplation of the meaning behind Lasty McLast. That long lost son or daughter isn't going to find themselves. That tribe of barbarians that wiped out the whole village won't kill itself. And..here's the best part..the DM controls the information and many of the circumstances for those players' characters to have stuff to do.

2. Does the "last x" character lead to intraparty conflict in Dark Sun?
The given example relates to turning Lasty McLast in for a reward. Sure..that might lead to intraparty conflict if one of the characters is both aware of the potential reward and roleplayed as being particularly mercenary in their worldview. The trick there is.. the DM is in control of both whether there is a reward..and..who knows about it.

And really, why would there be a posted reward for turning in something that shouldn't exist? Not a lot of unicorn bounties in our world are there? That said, if there is a reward, and our Jayne analogue knows about it, then, sure, there may be conflict but, a) the DM pretty much made it happen and b) intraparty conflict can be fun. Ask yourself, would Firefly be better or worse if it was missing either Jayne and River?

 

[Azzy]

And really, why would there be a posted reward for turning in something that shouldn't exist? Not a lot of unicorn bounties in our world are there?

If a reliable sighting of a real unicorn happened in the real world, you bet there would be a bunch of people clamoring to get their hands on it or kill it.

 

[Maxperson]

There is no "the way it was" or at least, there is no one the way it was. The nature of Ravenloft and how it connected to the other campaign worlds of TSR absolutely allowed for the inclusion on non-human races. How is this false?

Xenophobia is one aspect of the setting, yes. Is it a major aspect? I'm sure that varied from table to table. It is mentioned in the books, sure, and it is more prevalent in some domains. But is it essential to the setting? Can it be downplayed without losing the gothic horror vibe?

There is "the way it was" with regard to how it was written. As written xenophobia is a major aspect of the setting, as it is deliberately placed in around 80% of the domains. Is it "the one way?" Of course not. You can modify the setting to reduce or eliminate it entirely. And the setting is not entirely gothic horror, but rather horror of all sorts. Gothic just gets top billing. The xenophobia is just another of the ways the setting makes PCs fear.

Also, can't the xenophobia be largely dealt with through disguise and so on? I'm not saying that it can't be present. I'm saying that the DM absolutely has the ability to not make it the end all be all if the players included non-humans in their group.

Sure, disguise can help reduce the problem of the xenophobia. It won't get rid of it, though. Meet enough people and someone is likely to see through the disguise. Meet a werewolf or another race with scent, and you are screwed. At best they are going to be suspicious of the odd scent, and suspicion is as good as death in a lot of domains, and most likely they will recognize the scent of a non-human for what it is.

Part of it, yes. But not the point of the setting. If you think the point of Ravenloft is to have any no-humans run off from settlements, then okay. I don't think that is the point of the setting. I think the idea of xenophobia is one element that is meant to reinforce the point of the setting. And I don't think that letting that element be less prominent in one game does anything to diminish the vibe of the setting.

It's not THE point of the setting, but it is one of the major points of the setting. If you have fun eliminating that element, then have at it. The only wrong way to play this game is not to have fun. It's one thing to say that it can be reduced and that it doesn't diminish the vibe for you.

It's another to suggest that it should be done by the DM. It can and will diminish the setting for some people, and those people should not reduce the xenophobia in Ravenloft. Those DMs should not allow gnomes and clerics into Dark Sun. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

 

[Maxperson]

Not necessarily true for most character story arcs. But the arc you have suggested will suck all of the oxygen out of the other character arcs if taken to its logical conclusion. The last surviving gnome? Yep, that is a going to be a big deal in a world like Dark Sun. As a player I would definitely have a compelling reason to turn in that gnome unless there were strong personal hooks to the character.

If you have ever watched "Firefly" this is exactly the type of arc a character like Jayne would fall for (turning in the Doctor and River for profit). It immediately jumped into my mind when I read your story idea. The River on the run story arc dominated the Firefly and Serenity.

Every civilized area the gnome will draw attention to it without extensive use of disguises. It will always have to be on every character's mind to not accidentally slip up. Will it dominate every session, no. But anytime the last precious and unique gnome interacts with NPCs it will come up.

You have created a character flaw - Hunted: By Large Organization with high resources and high frequency - in the parlance of other RPGs. Once the identity is discovered NPCs will try to sell the information for resources or favor. It would be to the other PCs advantage to do the same.

But yeah you can hand wave any argument away with the phrase "So yeah....that’s not really a strong argument." Or maybe you aren't interested in the implications such an arc creates?

I don't necessarily agree with this. Given the length of time since the Sorcerer Kings wipes out the gnomes, in all likelihood very, very few other than the Sorcerer Kings will even recognize a gnome for what it is.