Do we really need Monks?

[Storyteller01]

aven't read the whole thread yet...

So I take it no one likes/wnats to play Qui Chan Cane?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Dude,
Establishing the point I acknowledged right away doesn't change the matter.

Monk is a western european term. It is secondarily applied to eastern groups when speaking in english because of the similarities.

To suggest that the name monk automatically implies martial arts and other eastern aspects in itself is silly. (or should I say awkward?)

If your claim that the name itself suggests shaolin is correct, then you should be able to establish that without any reference to the actual abilities of the class. Which you, of course, can not do. That you tried to establish your point about the name itself, alone, by talking instead about the various abilities of the class suggests that perhaps you simply do not understand the implication of the words you used.

The name monk itself means nothing more than a male member of a disciplined religious order. It doesn't infer any kind of eastern monk one drop more than it infers western monks.

Why would I care about whether or not I make reference to the class abilities? You could call it "pizza delivery man" and if it has ki powers, it's going to be making reference to something asian. Only, unlike "pizza delivery man", the name for this class does have a relevent connection to its abilities. That its abilities do not involve praying and solitude speak volumes about what kind of monk they were thinking of when they wrote the class.

Okay, let's try this again one last time, and then I'm out. Let's say there's a group of people in China known as hatmakers by people who aren't Chinese. They are known not for making hats (unlike their European namesakes), but for throwing steel nails at people.

So Billy the roleplayer buys his D&D book, and cracks it open. He sees in the table of contents an entry for "hatmakers". He thinks to himself, "hey, I bet that's supposed to be those Chinese hatmakers, because making hats isn't exactly a good way to kill monsters and take their stuff, but throwing steel nails will probably go a long way toward making dead monsters." Looking up the class he finds that, sure enough, they throw steel nails at people. No mention of China, but the class drips with reference to the Asian archetype, right down to the somewhat-cheesy-named "feng shui" strikes that hatmakers can make.

Then little Billy thinks "Hey, wait a minute. Isn't this supposed to be pseudo-European fantasy roleplaying, not pseudo-Asian fantasy roleplaying? What a gyp!"

Likewise, by calling the class "monk," they give a nod to the martial-arts type monk, as soon as it becomes clear what the class is capable of. You check the class...no praying, no fasting, but plenty of butt kicking. Hmm...did they mean European monks or Asian monks? I wonder...

Had they named the class something like "unarmed fighter" there would be no connection between the name and the Asian archetype. But since they called it "monk," and it's a martial arts class, it becomes clear that they didn't mean Friar Tuck. That's why I say the name connects it to the Asian monk, because it's obviously not the European kind, or even the more realistic Buddhist monk who does not much besides meditate. It's the kind that you see in martial arts movies, jumping around and kicking people in the head. Which monk? That monk.

And, dude, I don't see any reason why you have to be such a jerk about it.

 

[Storyteller01]

Or Pankration.

Savate (think I spelled it right). Specialized in kicks and attacks with the cane. One rumor I've heard stated that it was a European nobleman's art.

 

[Tonguez]

I'd wager an 8th century englishman with a quarterstaff would be a match for a comparable asian staff weilder.

There is a anecdote told in taiaha fighting circles (taiaha = New Zealand Maori 'blade-staff') which tells of an old master who back in the 1960's travelled to Japan and challenged a Japanee Bo master to a duel - The taiaha master won the duel.

(The taiaha is a wooden staff with a pointed butt and a bladed shaft. The blade is the main striking edge of the weapon (not the point and thus not a 'spear' as it is sometimes described)

Anyway later tonight I'm gonna start a thread were we map monk abilities over to non-western fighting styles (eg Pugilist, Caporeiaist, Savate-ist) and see if they work

eg Wis-bonus to AC. The Boxer is hyperaware of his environment dodging and rolling with blows. The Boxer learns to roll his shoulders and other body parts to ward of blows whilst leaving his hands free to hit.Increase Speed - Float like a butterfly sting like a Bee

 

[Ranger REG]

Savate was originated in the French region.

You have Capoiera(sp?), which is a Brazilian martial arts that incorporate dancing.

Lua is Hawai'ian martial arts.

 

[Tonguez]

Savate (think I spelled it right). Specialized in kicks and attacks with the cane. One rumor I've heard stated that it was a European nobleman's art.

Savate is French boxing combining English 'boxing' (which was a noblemans art) with a couple of french Kicking styles (one called jeu marseillais was developed by Sailors and involved making high sweeping kicks often using an outstretched hand to hold on the rail of a ship at sea. The name Savate itself comes from a hard shoe worn in Paris which were used to kick people in the shins during street brawls) Anyway combined with the techniques of Fencing and in particular 'Grand Baton' modern Savate (Boxe Francaise) was born

 

[Storyteller01]

Savate is French boxing combining English 'boxing' (which was a noblemans art) with a couple of french Kicking styles (one called jeu marseillais was developed by Sailors and involved making high sweeping kicks often using an outstretched hand to hold on the rail of a ship at sea. The name Savate itself comes from a hard shoe worn in Paris which were used to kick people in the shins during street brawls) Anyway combined with the techniques of Fencing and in particular 'Grand Baton' modern Savate (Boxe Francaise) was born

It appears that I've read the wrong books

As for monks in Europe, IMHO rapier and sabre duelists almost fit the bill. Per the book 'Martial Arts of Europe' they had strikes and defenses down to a science, literally. Geometeric equations, relations of the Master's Circle to human anatomy, the works. Trying to absorb it is nearly trancendental, but the same can be said for Japanese Sword technique.

 

[rounser]

This thread has given me an idea. Clerics are overpowered in order to get people to play them because they're uncool, and I never really liked the idea of priests being armoured frontliners. Monks are cool, but underpowered.

Combine the two classes; the new class fights in melee as a monk, and casts as a cleric, but lacks turn undead and all monk abilities unrelated to unarmed combat. The monk aspect westerns up and powers up, and the cleric aspect tanks less...and there's synergy between the unarmed combat and the spells, and the ability scores too.

I might have to try this.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

A view of fantasy rooted in Tolkien won't account for:

The barbarian, the cleric, the druid (unless you take Gandalf as druid rather than wizard, sorcerer or bard, as some suggest), the spellcasting ranger (debatable), the paladin or either the sorcerer or the wizard - whichever you don't think of Gandalf as.

Nor the beholder, aboleth, ilithid, rust monster, ettin, giants, dinosaurs, dire (as opposed to giant) animals, mummies, vampires (save for a single reference), most of the outsiders, and many more.

Nor basically every magic item that costs more than 4,000 gp.

Nor basically every spell above 3rd level.

What is a "typical fantasy setting," anyway? My idea of "typical fantasy" is Robert E. Howard, not JRR Tolkien. Monks fit quite well in the Hyperborean Age, as strange warrior-mystics from exotic lands. Conan even fought some probable wizard/monks in The People of the Black Circle. They seem perfectly at home to me. So do psionics, another branch of that deviltry men call magic.

Of course, D&D is not typical fantasy. It certainly isn't historical fantasy.

It's D&D fantasy. It's arguably the highest-magic fantasy around. It's attached to no specific world culture of Earth, but draws upon many. It is equal parts superheroes and sword and sorcery, with bits of epic fantasy thrown in.

Fighters, rogues, wizards and sorcerers are quite generic, equally appropriate to an Oriental, European, historical, fantastical, space fantasy or sword and sorcery campaign, although in the last case they might be enemies only.

Paladins, bards and druids are loosely based on legendary or historic archetypes of Europe, but none of them fit ability-wise. Druids arguably fit an Oriental mold as well, since shapeshifters and nature-worship appear quite commonly in eastern myth. Bard-as-artisan fits an Eastern mold directly, and paladin-as-samurai or mystic does as well, albeit with a change of clothes.

Barbarians actually do fit the Norse berserker model. Yet the class is generic enough to fit anywhere.

Monks actually do fit the Shaolin monk model. Oriental approved. Yet he fits as a magical warrior in a western campaign, with no more change of clothes than a paladin needs to fit in an eastern one.

Clerics, if anything, fit an eastern campaign better than a western one; far, far fewer clerics of Europe had magical or miraculous powers attributed to them. Their outer trappings are a funky mix of medieval knight templar and classical pantheist.

West: Fighter, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, barbarian, paladin, bard, druid
East: Fighter, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, monk, bard, druid
Neither: Cleric

Hardly decisive.

 

[Samuel Leming]

Anyway later tonight I'm gonna start a thread were we map monk abilities over to non-western fighting styles (eg Pugilist, Caporeiaist, Savate-ist) and see if they work

Well, good luck.

I prefer to look at it this way:
Fighter == Martial artist
Monk == Mystic using a martial art as a part of his path towards perfection.

This will be an interesting exercise, but I think you'll get better results modelling these arts if you create new feats for the fighters.

As for monks in Europe, IMHO rapier and sabre duelists almost fit the bill. Per the book 'Martial Arts of Europe' they had strikes and defenses down to a science, literally. Geometeric equations, relations of the Master's Circle to human anatomy, the works. Trying to absorb it is nearly trancendental, but the same can be said for Japanese Sword technique.

Now this I completely disagree with. D&D already handles these guys using a standard fighter running up the weapon specialization feat chain and taking the duelist prestige class. As you said, they treated their sword technique as a art & science, but not as mysticism.

Maybe I'm not understanding your point.

Sam