Do we really need Monks?

[Mad Mac]

I noticed that. Perfectly valid way of doing things, imo. The main downside is that it requires the existance of some sort of distant, monk-friendly culture, which isn't going to work in all campaign settings.

 

[Anax]

My only personal gripe about the class is the conflict between their drive to find perfection within and 3.x's fixation on equipment. Are you really perfect in mind, body, and spirit if you require 200k+ gp worth of equipment to get there? It's actually the only aspect of AU's Oathsworn I really liked.

(Wow. This thread is long now--I bet my reply gets lost in the shuffle.)

Heh. Actually, my current PC is a halfling rogue 3/monk 9 who gave up all of her possessions at the start of level 11 (after a bit of plot in which she cracked and nearly became entirely insanely evil.) And the whole reason for this is that I realized around level 9 or 10 when trying to figure out what items to work towards next just *how far* the character was from the ideal of the order she's a member of.

Specifically, she was trained in a Da'shon monastery, in the teachings of Zuoken. (Greyhawk lore here.) Zuoken, of course, is famous for having practically fought off an entire Suel army with nothing but his bare hands. (This is before the whole rising to demigodhood bit.)

Anyway, I realized while working on equipment that I could not conceive of the character doing anything but:
1) Falling into corruption through the weakness of her dependence on magic items and other artifice to prop up her skills. (This is made especially bad since she's a halfling, and feels that her slight stature is a weakness compared to others.)
2) Realizing just how much she is trying to prop up this weakness with a crutch, and doing something about it.

So I talked to my DM a bit, and got permission to swap my level 9 feat out for Sacred Vow from BoED, and to gain Vow of Poverty (slightly modified to remove the initial +4 from AC and keep things sane) from BoED at level 12. And then we did a bit of plot, and if she makes it through level 11 with no equipment, well, things will get interesting. I'm still trying to figure exactly how to treat the VoP benefits--on the one hand, they're clearly related to Good (tm). On the other, if they were simply bestowed by a good power, it would continue to be propping up a weakness. So I'm trying to strike a balance in which the powers are mixed between growing out of her newfound strength and clarity of belief, and granted by good powers for her commitment to the cause.

Anyway, I feel much better now. Because, yes, depending on thousands of gold pieces worth of magic items just doesn't feel right. Sure, a monk who has lost all of her gear is in many ways in better shape than other melee characters in those circumstances... but it's hard to pretend that gear is abstract when you're wondering what kinds of magic items you should invest in next.

 

[Anax]

Just because the creators of Greyhawk think the monk fits in their setting does not mean it does. It just results in Greyhawk being a flawed setting. The fact is that the monk's prominence is one of the things that makes the setting unattractive because the setting ends up feeling culturally incoherent.

Dear God. You really don't know anything about Greyhawk, do you? I mean--monks aren't wandering around all over the place, but that's primary because they're *gasp* members of monastic orders. Specifically, followers of Zuoken, descended from the ancient Baklunish, and members of the Scarlet Brotherhood, who are Suel racists and one of the major major big evils in the world. (And, incidentally, their teachings are probably descended from the Baklunish monks, since a number of monks were subverted by the Suel at one point, bringing their knowledge of martial arts and psionics with them.)

If anything, the only thing that doesn't fit right about core D&D 3.5 monks in Greyhawk is that they're *not* a psionic class. But, given that psionics aren't in the core rules, I think that the alternative (the martial arts features in addition to the specific mystical class features) is a very good implementation. If I wanted to do better, I'd probably try to put together a class combining the martial arts excellence of the Monk class with some of the features of the Psychic Warrior class. (And the only problem there, of course, is that you don't have to be *both* a martial artist and a user of psionic powers to follow the path of Zuoken. In short, Zuoken's followers focus on mastery of the body slightly over mastery of the mind, and Xan Yae's followers focus on mastery of the mind slightly over mastery of the body. But both groups, I would say, value the mastery of the self very very highly. The evil Scarlet Brotherhood, on the other hand, values mastery of the self as necessary to dominating others, and approaching a sort of ubermensch ideal.)

Anyway--if you're not familiar with a campaign setting, don't spout off as if you are. Claiming that monks don't fit in Greyhawk because of your bizarre preconceived notions of a setting that you clearly haven't spent much time studying isn't going to get you points with anybody.

 

[Wikid Klown]

"BECASE ASIA HAS JAPAN AND JAPAN HAS NINJAS, NOT WUSSY NITES THAT HAV OT WEAR ARMER!11!! NINJAS HAVE REAL ULTIMATE POWER, AND THAT"S WHY D&D HAS TEH MONK!!"

As put by Maddman75


Call me a nit picker if you will, but my step mother is from China and I'm taking Japanese (so I know a little about the culture). Japan doesn't have ninja's, they have the samurai (who do wear armor). China has the Ninjas (who wear very light or no armor). The ninja was more of the rogue-ish type, or an assasin, were as the samurai had a deeper code about fighting with honor. The monk's are really not associated with them as far as I can tell, not in DnD anyway. Especially since there's a Ninja PRC in 3.0 and a Ninja core class in the more recent Complete Adventurer. I've also seen many things about "kickin people's butts". LAWFUL! They don't look for fights, they only fight when one comes to them. Not sure if any of this has already been brought up since I didn't read all 10 pages.

I don't think the monk is really needed. Really all that's needed is a wizard and a fighter and a lot more feats to customize those two more (magic and brute force). Feats that would make them more like a rogue or cleric, or whatever else is desired. The monk is there for people like me, who like the martial arts, the cool moves and weapons, and who can see what it's actually like. The people who like the variants, the not so run of the mill classes. That and it's there so there aren't a lot of feats printed that would be there just to make one class seem more like another. Needed, nah, just nice to have around incase somebody wants to use it, including the DM for a sick vampiric monk...bad memories. I don't really see the monk as a purely fighting class, it has taken into account some of the more spiritual things, though not many. I think it'd be a lot better if they did with the monk what they did with the ranger (only more magical and more physical instead of ranged or melee). But if that happened, you'd basically be playing an unarmored cleric with a very high speed. That's about it, hope I've helped some and offended the least I could, I'm gone.

 

[Doctor Shaft]

Wikkid Clown, I agree with some of your thoughts. That's precisely why I enjoy the monk class so much as is.

While I agree that as a core class, it's one of the most stifling and less "generic" ones made. So, from a purely mechanical standpoint, I'll agree that the monk is a poor class. But, in terms of flavor, and the mystic side, it's the only reason I really play the class. I also have been studying martial arts for a long while, so it's fun to come to the D&D table and "ham it up" in the spiritual, martial world.

The monk isn't ever really about "kicking butt". That's a martial artist. Frankly, I would never play a martial artist type character. Jackie Chan is fun to watch, but I'd never want to "play one." But that's just my opinion. Obviously, there are a lot of people that loathe the spiritual side as well. Both valid opinions.

I do wish the monk were more generic. I like Hong's representation in the martial artist. It really is very well thought out. And, if you really wanted to go the "deeper" route, aka spiritual side, there are feats that you can take to represent that. I think his best feat on there is the one that takes the MA's Wis stat, and uses that as the Con stat for hp. Really cool feat... and because of the pre-req's it's also not ridiculously powered. I'd say, from a purely "home-brew" standpoint, that his version is one of the best "generic" versions I've seen. Of course, it might not work for everyone, or in D&D, but it's a good step in the right direction as far as fan creations go.

 

[BryonD]

We're done here.

We've been done here.

Monks work great in D&D. That you can't find enough adaptability to wrap your brain around that is your problem. I'm not going to bother going through another round of reasoning just to get another response of narrow-minded absolutism. Dropping monks from a campaign is one thing, but saying they shouldn't be there without full Oriental support is assinine.

In the mean time you just have to suffer the persisting (and quite excellent) reality of monks in the PH. I hear Sharpies are good for redaction.

Enjoy.

Reply if you want, but I don't see value in wasting any more time on shallow, one-dimensional thinking so you get a nice spot on my very short ignore list.

 

[Piratecat]

No personal insults. If you don't agree with someone, feel free to ignore him or her, but taking a personal shot is absolutely inappropriate.

This goes for everyone, not just Bryon. Be polite, or don't post.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

Call me a nit picker if you will, but my step mother is from China and I'm taking Japanese (so I know a little about the culture). Japan doesn't have ninja's, they have the samurai (who do wear armor). China has the Ninjas (who wear very light or no armor). The ninja was more of the rogue-ish type, or an assasin, were as the samurai had a deeper code about fighting with honor. The monk's are really not associated with them as far as I can tell, not in DnD anyway. Especially since there's a Ninja PRC in 3.0 and a Ninja core class in the more recent Complete Adventurer. I've also seen many things about "kickin people's butts". LAWFUL! They don't look for fights, they only fight when one comes to them. Not sure if any of this has already been brought up since I didn't read all 10 pages.

Er... huh?

The ninja is very, very Japanese.

Now, there are, or rather were, ninja-ish figures in Chinese legend/history/folktale, as there were in Korean legend/history/folktale, but the ninja is an extremely Japanese archetype.

 

[Samuel Leming]

I've decided to post the unarmed combat feats I was working on. EN World doesn't let me post new threads right now, but a guy named Korimyr the Rat was thinking along similar lines, so I posted it in the thread he started. I'd appreciate any feedback from anyone who's still interested.

Well, I suppose this thread has run it's course...

Sam