D&D 4E Do we still need plusses for weapons and armour? An idea for 4E?

[Felix]

If I can't have an Ogre Slaying Knife that's +9 against ogres, I don't want to play it.

 

[Quartz]

Um, no. There's no such restriction in 3.5 for PA and CE. Also, don't use the wrong terminology.

AB (presuming you mean Attack Bonus) is certainly not the same thing as BAB

Excuse me. I'm well aware of this. I was quite careful to differentiate between AB and BAB.

You have errors in your interpretation of the rules that ruins your recommendation.

So you're saying that with a BAB of +10, Power Attack, and Improved Combat Expertise, you can Power Attack for +10, use ICE for +10 AC and attack at +0? Or -10? I guess I'm a horrible GM to restrict it.

 

[Arkhandus]

Meh, seems a poor, oversimplified idea to me. Ooo, magic weapons that don't actually cut or smash any better than normal, much cheaper, much easier to find, ordinary weapons. And no matter how powerful the creator or how much raw magic they invest in it......it's still a +0 magic weapon. Never you mind that the same amount of magical energy could have just been expended to obliterate a small mountain.

And the flaming weapons that don't actually hurt any more than normal weapons idea is just as blah. More powerful magic invested in a weapon should be more powerful! Not just a leeeettle bit more versatile.

I remember.....when a +5 weapon was really worth something.

 

[Quartz]

I remember.....when a +5 weapon was really worth something.

So do I - you might look at my earlier suggestion of making the Plus of the weapon the critical range.

 

[Diirk]

Of course they do. I'm suggesting that characters get the opportunity to take feats to replace them. So instead of only +10, if the character has taken Power Attack, Combat Expertise and 3 levels of Combat Improvement (as per my second suggestion) would have a pool of 16 (= 10 from BAB and 6 from feats). So you could increase your attack to +12/+7, devote 2 points to damage with Power Attack, and 2 points to AC with Combat Expertise. This balances the +3 armour and +3 weapon that the character would otherwise have.

I'm not sure how spending 5 feats to get +2 AC and +2 hit/damage "balances" losing +3 armour/weapons. Even if you use a 2hander so actually get +2 hit, +4 damage.. you're still better off with a +3 weapon (PA for 1 = +2 hit, +5 damage). Granted round to round you're a little more versatile, but you've also made power attack and combat expertise (and thus 13 str and 13 int) a virtual necessity, and heaven forbid someone might want to use a dagger or other light weapon, and lose access to power attack completely !

 

[Infiniti2000]

So you're saying that with a BAB of +10, Power Attack, and Improved Combat Expertise, you can Power Attack for +10, use ICE for +10 AC and attack at +0? Or -10? I guess I'm a horrible GM to restrict it.

You can PA for +10, use ICR for +10 AC, and attack at -20. And I made no comments about whether it was a good or bad idea, just that something in your assumptions didn't compute. More importantly, I made the comment that the pluses are important on the weapon because they affect your attack bonus (not BAB), thus alleviating some of that penalty; i.e. you need the pluses to be able to hit at full PA/ICE.

The other major benefit of the pluses is the bonus to hardness and hit points. Also, the house rule to modify DR/magic to +1 per 5 points of DR is common. This change you propose negatively affects that as well.

In short I just don't see a problem here that needs solving. What major problem exists? I reread the thread and didn't see why you or anyone else think pluses on weapons/armor is bad design.

 

[Quartz]

In short I just don't see a problem here that needs solving.

Fair enough.

What major problem exists? I reread the thread and didn't see why you or anyone else think pluses on weapons/armor is bad design.

There is no major problem. I'm just considering ways of simplifying.

 

[ogre]

Quartz,

I see your concern and agree. High level play is burdensome with all the pluses for this and that and ends up scaling way out of proportion. I say let any pluses come from other finite and limited sources (like weapon focus, the only +1 you can get for instance). Ya see, I think that's one reason power scale at higher levels falls apart so easily and the game breaks down. Having plus this and plus that to hit works fine for a computer game that does all the adding for you, but I have to agree, it would be nice to see the +AC, +attack, +ability magic go, in favor of more unique magic effects.
Now, I could see keeping pluses for damage, as that isn't connected to AC. Of course, everything else would be scaled appropriately to account for there not being +weapons and armor and the d20 roll will remain that much more relavant at higher levels.

 

[Tonguez]

There was a 'Weapon Stances' thread on houserules once (I'm too lazy to go look for it) which basically eliminated weapons and instead allowed a fighter to 'create' damage-crit combinations (ie weapons) on the fly.

Um basically the idea was that the fighter by changing his stance and grip could effectively go from having the qualities of a knife to those of a long spear. Magical qualities could also be added in. Armour could also be worked in to the system

anyway I'm not explaining it well but it did what op suggested in a much more fluid way

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Umm... no. In 3.5 if you have a BAB of 10 and the feats Power Attack and Improved Combat Expertise, the sum of (Attack, Power Attack, ICE) must equal 10. You could reduce your AB to 3, devote 4 points to damage with Power Attack, and 3 points to Ac with Improved Combat Expertise.

COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.
Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.
Special: A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.

POWER ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Str 13.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)
A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

nope, no restrictions there, so with my BAB of +4, my CE pumping my AC by 4 and my PA pumping my damage by 8 (2H weapon) for a total of -8 to my attack rolls is quite legal. there is nothing that can reduce your BAB except failing a Fort save 24 hours after a negative level hits you and/or being raised from the dead.