D&D 4E Do we still need plusses for weapons and armour? An idea for 4E?

[Quartz]

With options like Power Attack and Combat Expertise, and combat improvement feats like Weapon Focus, do weapons and armour still need plusses?

The Grey Mouser always called whatever sword he bore 'Scalpel'.

Instead of say a +3 Anarchic Shocking Burst Longsword, how about simply an Anarchic Shocking Burst longsword? Instead of a Soulfire Breastplate +3 of Flying, you'd simply have a Soulfire Breastplate of Flying.

In 3E you'd need to give far more feats to compensate, but the feats themselves could be condensed:

Attack Improvement: gives +1 to hit and +1 to damage. Max +5. Maybe also improves critical range by 1. Perhaps specific to a weapon (q.v. Focus) or a class of weapon (q.v. Mastery)
Defence Improvement: gives +1 to armour bonus and +1 to shield bonus. Max +5.
Improved Critical: either increases critical range by 1 or increases critical multiplier by x1 (e.g. from x2 to x3). Max 16-20 or x5.

All feats can be taken multiple times and stack. All feats have the prerequisite that the bonus is limited to BAB / 3.

This is somewhat precedented with the Monk class and the Ki strike feat.

Or you could redo it as below:

Combat Improvement: gives +2 to your Attack. This feat can be taken multiple times and stacks. This feat does not increase your BAB.
Power Attack: as before but you are limited by BAB + Combat Improvement.
Combat Expertise: as before but you are limited by BAB + Combat Improvement. There is no longer any prerequisite for the feat.
Improved Critical: as above.

Your thoughts?

 

[Technik4]

If you play it saga-style, then characters will do more damage as they level regardless. I wouldn't miss +s personally.

You find a Magical Greatsword.

You find a Greatsword +3.

Eh, if 3e characters weren't so item-dependent (starved) you could have things be more novel-fantasy and less numeric.

 

[Infiniti2000]

With options like Power Attack and Combat Expertise, and combat improvement feats like Weapon Focus, do weapons and armour still need plusses?

Maybe I don't understand you, but your statement here seems like a non sequitur. To use Power Attack and Combat Expertise, you need pluses for weapons.

 

[Gort]

I would like to see all items that just give flat plusses go, and be replaced by class abilities. I'd sooner a fighter had +5 AC as a class ability rather than having +5 AC because of his magic armour.

I'd like to see more "armour of fire resistance" and "rod of wonder" type magic items instead of "+2 strength" and "+2 sword" type items - just give your fighter a +2 attack class ability and a +2 strength ability. This also keeps things simple, as you don't need to keep a laundry list of items. Iron Heroes did this well and should be commended and emulated by the new edition of D&D.

 

[Quartz]

Maybe I don't understand you, but your statement here seems like a non sequitur. To use Power Attack and Combat Expertise, you need pluses for weapons.

No you don't. If you've got BAB +10, you've got 10 points you can distribute between Attack, Damage (Power Attack), and Defence (Combat Expertise).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

With options like Power Attack and Combat Expertise, and combat improvement feats like Weapon Focus, do weapons and armour still need plusses?

The Grey Mouser always called whatever sword he bore 'Scalpel'.

Instead of say a +3 Anarchic Shocking Burst Longsword, how about simply an Anarchic Shocking Burst longsword? Instead of a Soulfire Breastplate +3 of Flying, you'd simply have a Soulfire Breastplate of Flying.

In 3E you'd need to give far more feats to compensate, but the feats themselves could be condensed:

Attack Improvement: gives +1 to hit and +1 to damage. Max +5. Maybe also improves critical range by 1. Perhaps specific to a weapon (q.v. Focus) or a class of weapon (q.v. Mastery)
Defence Improvement: gives +1 to armour bonus and +1 to shield bonus. Max +5.
Improved Critical: either increases critical range by 1 or increases critical multiplier by x1 (e.g. from x2 to x3). Max 16-20 or x5.

All feats can be taken multiple times and stack. All feats have the prerequisite that the bonus is limited to BAB / 3.

This is somewhat precedented with the Monk class and the Ki strike feat.

Or you could redo it as below:

Combat Improvement: gives +2 to your Attack. This feat can be taken multiple times and stacks. This feat does not increase your BAB.
Power Attack: as before but you are limited by BAB + Combat Improvement.
Combat Expertise: as before but you are limited by BAB + Combat Improvement. There is no longer any prerequisite for the feat.
Improved Critical: as above.

Your thoughts?

I am not certain about the feats, but otherwise, I think it is possible, provided the game is balanced accordingly.

The current way monster AC advances with CR makes it neccessary to have weapon "plusses". Or maybe it was the other way around? Anyway, that could be done differently. Maybe the new 30 levels base line indicates that this in fact changed.

Yesterday I thought about alternative takes on magic weapons. Image if a magical item bonus on a weapon wouldn't make it per se more powerful, just more flexible. A Flaming Longsword would still deal 1d8 points of damage, but the damage was no longer just slashing,but fire and slashing. Against a creature with Damage Reduction (but no Energy Resistance to Fire), it would be more flexible. In addition, the fire option might have other advantages. maybe you can use it to ignite flammables. Maybe it got a special power that would allow you to shoot a burst of flames once per encounter that allows you to make a ranged attack with the sword or something like that.

The end result would be that you still deal only 1d8+STR of damage. But you have more cool options, which will also provide mechanical benefits in some cases.

Monsters and players AC doesn't need to improve as massively as they used to to compensate for the weapon plusses, and you still have magical weapons.

 

[Infiniti2000]

No you don't. If you've got BAB +10, you've got 10 points you can distribute between Attack, Damage (Power Attack), and Defence (Combat Expertise).

First of all, in your example you could apply 10 points to power attack and 5 points to combat expertise (or even 10 with improved combat expertise). So, when you say 'distribute' I'm not sure I follow.

If by 'distribute' you mean that you only want to account for +10 in the combination of power attack, combat expertise, etc., then your discussion on BAB is meaningless and, in fact, those pluses on the weapon become very important. They will allow you to hit more easily.

 

[Quartz]

First of all, in your example you could apply 10 points to power attack and 5 points to combat expertise (or even 10 with improved combat expertise).

Umm... no. In 3.5 if you have a BAB of 10 and the feats Power Attack and Improved Combat Expertise, the sum of (Attack, Power Attack, ICE) must equal 10. You could reduce your AB to 3, devote 4 points to damage with Power Attack, and 3 points to Ac with Improved Combat Expertise.

If by 'distribute' you mean that you only want to account for +10 in the combination of power attack, combat expertise, etc., then your discussion on BAB is meaningless and, in fact, those pluses on the weapon become very important. They will allow you to hit more easily.

Of course they do. I'm suggesting that characters get the opportunity to take feats to replace them. So instead of only +10, if the character has taken Power Attack, Combat Expertise and 3 levels of Combat Improvement (as per my second suggestion) would have a pool of 16 (= 10 from BAB and 6 from feats). So you could increase your attack to +12/+7, devote 2 points to damage with Power Attack, and 2 points to AC with Combat Expertise. This balances the +3 armour and +3 weapon that the character would otherwise have.

Actually, I've spotted a significant flaw: this system does not account for shields. Fortunately this is easily fixed: just as 2H weapons get double effect from Power Attack, so shield users should get double effect from Combat Expertise (I think I'll put this last as a house rule into 3.5 anyway).

 

[Infiniti2000]

Umm... no. In 3.5 if you have a BAB of 10 and the feats Power Attack and Improved Combat Expertise, the sum of (Attack, Power Attack, ICE) must equal 10. You could reduce your AB to 3, devote 4 points to damage with Power Attack, and 3 points to Ac with Improved Combat Expertise.

Um, no. There's no such restriction in 3.5 for PA and CE. Also, don't use the wrong terminology. AB (presuming you mean Attack Bonus) is certainly not the same thing as BAB.

You have errors in your interpretation of the rules that ruins your recommendation.

 

[Drowbane]

Umm... no. In 3.5 if you have a BAB of 10 and the feats Power Attack and Improved Combat Expertise, the sum of (Attack, Power Attack, ICE) must equal 10. You could reduce your AB to 3, devote 4 points to damage with Power Attack, and 3 points to Ac with Improved Combat Expertise.

Infiniti2k is correct here.