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D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
But, nothing stops you from having those stories. Nothing about a new canon erases what you were doing before. You can simply ignore the new stuff.
The default effect indicates that changing from the assumptions is a hassle - and enough hassle in the right places (depending on the individual) makes it too much of a hassle to bother continuing to buy books for.

Hussar said:
And the really funny thing is, 5e comes along, changes just as much lore as 4e ever did, and that's all groovy.
I've seen (and made!) gripes. So it's not all groovy.

See that list back a page or so for some of the things that, hypothetically, may be going into why it seems to be overall less intense than it was during 4e.

You might add "lore options" to that list, just to think of it now. In 4e, tieflings were tieflings whether they were in Eberron, Dark Sun, or the Nentir Vale - all the same critter, all the same story of ancient evil pacts with Asmodeus. In 5e, we've got an explicit acceptance of varying origins for our tieflings.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The default effect indicates that changing from the assumptions is a hassle - and enough hassle in the right places (depending on the individual) makes it too much of a hassle to bother continuing to buy books for.

I've used the Forgotten Realms for about 95% of my campaigns since 2e. I liked canon through 3e, but as soon as 4e came out and I saw the changes that they made, I just tossed 4e canon out the window and kept playing with 3e canon. It was 0 hassle. I am also ignoring 5e. 0 hassle. It's really no hassle to ignore things you don't like and keep them the same as what you did like. It's only a hassle if you have to build new fluff yourself for some reason, which if you have old canon that you like, should be very, very rare.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I've used the Forgotten Realms for about 95% of my campaigns since 2e. I liked canon through 3e, but as soon as 4e came out and I saw the changes that they made, I just tossed 4e canon out the window and kept playing with 3e canon. It was 0 hassle. I am also ignoring 5e. 0 hassle. It's really no hassle to ignore things you don't like and keep them the same as what you did like. It's only a hassle if you have to build new fluff yourself for some reason, which if you have old canon that you like, should be very, very rare.

No hassle for you doesn't mean no hassle for everyone. I was happy to put in the effort to make the transitions I wanted, too, but I'm a big nerd with a lot of brand loyalty, and hardly reflective of the "general gamer."
 

Hussar

Legend
The default effect indicates that changing from the assumptions is a hassle - and enough hassle in the right places (depending on the individual) makes it too much of a hassle to bother continuing to buy books for.


I've seen (and made!) gripes. So it's not all groovy.

See that list back a page or so for some of the things that, hypothetically, may be going into why it seems to be overall less intense than it was during 4e.

You might add "lore options" to that list, just to think of it now. In 4e, tieflings were tieflings whether they were in Eberron, Dark Sun, or the Nentir Vale - all the same critter, all the same story of ancient evil pacts with Asmodeus. In 5e, we've got an explicit acceptance of varying origins for our tieflings.

See, that's the part that baffles me. I'm not a canon guy, so, really, it's just so far outside my realm of experience that it's another country.

For example, we're playing in a Dragonlance campaign. Someone (heh) is playing a gnome. That gnome in no way actually resembles as Dragonlance gnome. Yet, the group accepts it and loves the character. Because the character is fascinating and played extremely well. Fantastic character. Completely ignores lore.

To me, that's the way it always works. Groups care about what's going on at the table. What's in some book is always secondary. In the same Dragonlance game, I was rather shocked to see a devil being summoned since DL doesn't actually have devils. Apparently, however, in later supplements (3e era I believe, or perhaps 2e), devils were added into DL. Now, to me, this is a completely unnecessary change. There was no particular reason for it since DL doesn't need devils, nor do devils appear anywhere in the fiction.

But, the DM added in a devil (one time and it never came up again) so, I just shrugged and moved on. It's his campaign after all. At the time, I complained a bit - "What? There's no devils in DL." "Yes, there is". was the extent of the conversation.

So, if you want to ignore the defaults, that's what playing D&D is all about. I used to play a LOT of paladins. And, I generally went for the more extremely lawful paladins rather than that Dudley Do Right ones that were the default. It did cause some friction with DM's at the time until I could explain where I was coming from and I did run into one or two DM's who just couldn't wrap their heads around the concept, even after talking about it and showing them some articles from Dragon magazine which better explained my position.

My point is though, canon almost never survives contact with the players. IME, that's pretty universal. And, if that's true, then why get terribly fussed when canon changes. The odds of any given canon actually surviving intact to the table are pretty close to zero anyway, so, why get fussed about it?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
No hassle for you doesn't mean no hassle for everyone. I was happy to put in the effort to make the transitions I wanted, too, but I'm a big nerd with a lot of brand loyalty, and hardly reflective of the "general gamer."

How much hassle is it for you to say no, it's the way it was before?
 


Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Bingo. We change Eladrin back to angel elves (are they even in the Monster Manual? I can't remember) and suddenly they vanish into thin air. No appearances in any published material. Completely invisible, just like pre-4e. No one cares.

So then after the problem is fixed what do you want to happen?

And also, lol at Eladrin vanishing into thin air. I see what you did there.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
For example, we're playing in a Dragonlance campaign. Someone (heh) is playing a gnome. That gnome in no way actually resembles as Dragonlance gnome. Yet, the group accepts it and loves the character. Because the character is fascinating and played extremely well. Fantastic character. Completely ignores lore.
As the player of that gnome, I'd really disagree with that description. He completely resembles a Dragonlance gnome. He's going in a direction I don't think Dragonlance gnomes have gone before, since he's my character and not Weiss/Hickman's character, but the roots of everything that shapes his character are entirely consistent with and inspired by the descriptions of Dragonlance gnomes. He in no way violates what DL gnomes are or stand for, and, in fact, he operates entirely within their logic.

I did this specifically because I was interested in playing a character that had some special significance in Dragonlance. I wanted to work with Dragonlance history, Dragonlance archetypes, Dragonlance mythos. If I was playing a gnome in an Eberron game, or in a Greyhawk game, it would be an entirely different kind of character.

And I don't do this because I especially give a flip about DL lore (I've never read the books), but because if I'm going to play DL, I want to play a character that, if they were not in that setting, would lose something. Railing against destiny and the Balance just doesn't have the same meaning in a setting where those things are not very important.

My point is though, canon almost never survives contact with the players. IME, that's pretty universal. And, if that's true, then why get terribly fussed when canon changes. The odds of any given canon actually surviving intact to the table are pretty close to zero anyway, so, why get fussed about it?

Everyone's got their own breaking points. If you're WotC, the question becomes how much you can get away with changing. For you, maybe it's a lot. For George Average Gamer, maybe it's a lot less. Folks got a right to play what makes 'em happy and drop what don't.

Maxperson said:
How much hassle is it for you to say no, it's the way it was before?
For me personally? Depends on my group. I'd have an uphill climb with my newbie group, since it's hard enough getting them to pay attention to what's on their sheets and already written in the books. Honestly, not really worth it - they're not that invested and it'd just be another hurdle they have to leap over.

For a group who's really into RAW, it'd also be a potential issue. Suddenly I'm - horror of horrors - running homebrew material, and that way lies madness.

For a group who didn't like the particular lore I was changing back to, it might also be a problem. [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] has a well-developed hate-on for Planescape - I'm not going to tell him that tieflings are now PS tieflings in my campaign. That might be enough to get the campaign to fail to launch before it's off the ground! This might also apply to someone who likes the new lore, in the other direction. "Oh, so eladrin aren't teleporting elves from the feywild anymore, they're chaotic angels of liberation and freedom? Bah, I liked teleporting elves!"

Beyond newbies, RAW games, and idiosyncratic likes and dislikes, you're looking at a possibility space that might not be all that large, when all is said and done.

....and that's if you can get the group together in the first place!

I imagine the general "you" would face somewhat similar difficulty.

Some of these things might be D&D-specific flavors of the elements that usually come into play when explaining the default effect - loss aversion, recommendation, cognitive effort, switching costs - but those costs go beyond these things, and these things go beyond the costs as well.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
For me personally? Depends on my group. I'd have an uphill climb with my newbie group, since it's hard enough getting them to pay attention to what's on their sheets and already written in the books. Honestly, not really worth it - they're not that invested and it'd just be another hurdle they have to leap over.

That doesn't sound like an issue with changing default. It sounds like an issue with the players. Those are different issues.

For a group who's really into RAW, it'd also be a potential issue. Suddenly I'm - horror of horrors - running homebrew material, and that way lies madness.

Fluff is rarely a rule, so RAW doesn't really play into it. My group right now consists of 2 players who are really into rules, and two who couldn't give a fig. I let them know that I use the Forgotten Realms primarily by 3e setting, but I do change some things.

All of them said okay, since the DM is allowed to change things......by RAW ;)

For a group who didn't like the particular lore I was changing back to, it might also be a problem. @Hussar has a well-developed hate-on for Planescape - I'm not going to tell him that tieflings are now PS tieflings in my campaign. That might be enough to get the campaign to fail to launch before it's off the ground! This might also apply to someone who likes the new lore, in the other direction. "Oh, so eladrin aren't teleporting elves from the feywild anymore, they're chaotic angels of liberation and freedom? Bah, I liked teleporting elves!"

A few things. First, compatibility is always an issue. That's why you find players who are compatible with your DMing style. Second, even if you have a hate for Planescape, you can still appreciate a race from that setting. Tieflings with random abilities to represent their chaotic heritage doesn't have to be "Planescape", it can just be Tiefling in any setting.
[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], would you have a problem with 4e or 5e Tieflings having random physical traits using the Planescape tables, instead of set ones?

Beyond newbies, RAW games, and idiosyncratic likes and dislikes, you're looking at a possibility space that might not be all that large, when all is said and done.

....and that's if you can get the group together in the first place!

Maybe I'm spoiled by gaming in Los Angeles, but I have never found it hard to find players who are compatible with my style, and I change things all the time. I've actually rarely found a player who even thought it was a problem for the DM to change things. RAW lovers, newbies, or indifferent players. The vast majority have been okay with it. The others found a different game.
 

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