D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

[pemerton]

But people change up this stuff all the time. In fact, original D&D play was based on this sort of thing - eg the GM says "You see something that looks like a beholder" but really it's a gas spore. Or whatever.

But see, that's just it - that WASN'T a change!

I was replying to a post that was saying that changes are bad because they trick players. My point was that mixing and matching to trick the players was part of the game from an early date.

Planescape revealed that Demons and Devils actually call themselves Tanar'ri and Baatezu, respectively, but the material was explicit that your average Joe peasant on some Prime-Material world still calls them Demons and Devils (and probably doesn't know the difference.) While some of these creatures become annoyed at not being referred to by their proper names, a few actually revel in it (such as the Glabrezu in one Planescape adventure who is described as preferring to be called a Demon because many people know and fear that name.) Adding something to the game - such as allowing Dwarves to be Wizards - is not the same as subtracting something from the game

Addition and subtraction here are obviously metaphors - but the Planescape changes subtract, because they remove character who are properly understood by Joe Peasant (they're evil fiends of corruption etc) and replaces them with (in effect) aliens who are misunderstood by Joe Peasant.

 

[pemerton]

But if a large group of people have been eating at the same place for years and years, and everybody knows what's on the menu and is presumably there because they like how the food is served, having somebody else come along and change the menu isn't fair to them.

Why not? A private purveyor of food and drink isn't obliged to preserve a particular menu. And they're not doing anything unfair by changing it.

I presume you looked at your 1e, 2e, and 3e books before you bought them, and knew what you were getting. Those were the standard for what D&D WAS. 3e changed a few things, such as allowing Dwarves to be Wizards, but you could continue playing your old Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms or Planescape game with little or no problem. Then 4e came along and changed almost everything. Netir Vale mugged Greyhawk and stole a lot of the good bits, the cosmology was completely different, monsters were killed off or radically changed, etc.

What monsters were radically changed? Not any of the traditional humanoids. Not giants. Not any of the oozes or aberrations. Not githyanki or githzerai. Not demons or devils. (Changing succubi to devils is no more radical than 3E changing orcs from LE to CE.)

Titans changed. A new sort of angel and archon. What else have you got in mind?

I've not had any trouble running various B/X and 3E/d20 modules in my 4e game.

 

[pemerton]

For me a bigger problem would be making all Gnolls into some kind of Demon Gnoll mash-up that WotC seems to prefer now. Luckily for me I dont have a Gnoll PC who suddenly got transformed into a Demonoll because that would have been a problem.

But why would WotC be able to change a PC in your game?

 

[Shasarak]

What monsters were radically changed?

All of them. It was a complete sea change.

 

[Elderbrain]

Why not? A private purveyor of food and drink isn't obliged to preserve a particular menu. And they're not doing anything unfair by changing it.

What monsters were radically changed? Not any of the traditional humanoids. Not giants. Not any of the oozes or aberrations. Not githyanki or githzerai. Not demons or devils. (Changing succubi to devils is no more radical than 3E changing orcs from LE to CE.)

Titans changed. A new sort of angel and archon. What else have you got in mind?

Giants most certainly WERE changed, going from creations of the Giant deities to being creations of the Primordials, with their powers adjusted to match the new story, and Demons became Elemental creatures with limited immunity to elemental damage. It wasn't just a case of changing the background fluff, many monster's powers and abilities were explicitly altered to agree with the new storyline and cosmology - i.e. the Abyss is inside/under the Elemental Chaos in 4e, so Demons were converted into Elemental creatures.

You're right that a business is free to radically change its menu - but usually when they do that they take down the "McDonalds" sign outside and put up a sign that says "Arby's" or "Denny's" or whatever - they don't pretend they're still the same business! Also, that's a good way to lose loyal customers...

 

[Elderbrain]

Addition and subtraction here are obviously metaphors - but the Planescape changes subtract, because they remove character who are properly understood by Joe Peasant (they're evil fiends of corruption etc) and replaces them with (in effect) aliens who are misunderstood by Joe Peasant.

As I believe I noted above, your average "Prime Material" character (in a Planescape game or otherwise) is COMPLETELY UNAWARE that Demons and Devils have any other names than "Demons" and "Devils"! The fact that the Demons and Devils (and other characters "in the know") know better in NO WAY changes this! For instance, I post as Elderbrain - obviously not my real name - does the fact that I have another, true name in any way make it harder to identify me, especially since you've never even heard of it?!? Does having another name somehow magically "subtract" my identity as Elderbrain? Clearly not!

 

[Shasarak]

As I believe I noted above, your average "Prime Material" character (in a Planescape game or otherwise) is COMPLETLY UNAWARE that Demons and Devils have any other names than "Demons" and "Devils"! The fact that the Demons and Devils (and other characters "in the know") know better in NO WAY changes this! For instance, I post as Elderbrain - obviously not my real name - does the fact that I have another, true name in any way make it harder to identify me, especially since you've never even heard of it?!? Does having another name somehow magically "subtract" my identity as Elderbrain? Clearly not!

But does this mean that Elderbrain has been replaced with (in effect) an alien misunderstood by Joe Peasant?

It reminds me of the Joke about asking an Australian for the Vienna Boys' Choir schedule.

 

[Maxperson]

But does this mean that Elderbrain has been replaced with (in effect) an alien misunderstood by Joe Peasant?

It reminds me of the Joke about asking an Australian for the Vienna Boys' Choir schedule.

This one was my favorite.

Q: Can you give me some information about hippo racing in Australia? (USA)

A: A-fri-ca is the big triangle shaped continent south of Europe. Aus-tra-lia is that big island in the middle of the Pacific which does not... oh forget it. Sure, the hippo racing is every Tuesday night in Kings Cross. Come naked.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

All of them. It was a complete sea change.

'Splain yourself, please. I've played a lot of DnD, and...nope. A 4e orc is the same critter as a 3.5 orc and a 5e orc and a 2e orc.


I mean...giant deities became primordials. Ok. That is...basically the demons rename thing, aimed at a different group of god-things.

Trolls regenerate, bugbears use large weapons, dragon puke elements at you...what monsters changed?

I mean, more than they all always change every time a new edition comes out, obviously.

 

[pemerton]

Giants most certainly WERE changed, going from creations of the Giant deities to being creations of the Primordials, with their powers adjusted to match the new story, and Demons became Elemental creatures with limited immunity to elemental damage. It wasn't just a case of changing the background fluff, many monster's powers and abilities were explicitly altered to agree with the new storyline and cosmology - i.e. the Abyss is inside/under the Elemental Chaos in 4e, so Demons were converted into Elemental creatures.

But "Elemental" is something you can just ignore. It's no different, as a change, from orcs going from LE to CE in 3E.

And the variable resistance is consistent with the fact that demons always had various bits of resistance.

The change in giant cosmology can likewise be ignored if you want to, and having run G2 in 4e I can tell you that frost giants play just the same in 4e as in AD&D - big bruisers with some cold-themed abilities.

I can tell you from play experience that goblins, gnolls, mind flayers, githzerai, frost giants, white dragons, drow, demons, devils, all play just as they did back in the day (subject to the general changes in mechanics across tradition). I've run B10, G2 and D2 in my 4e game with no issues.