D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

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Where's the harm if the folks in Kara-Tur are simply mistaken, and the Celestial Emperor is just the chief deity of that PART of the world
This is like asking, Where's the harm in someone in FR being simply mistaken about Ao? (? I think I've got that right) - that Ao is not the overgod, but just a localally prominent figure.

Or, Where's the harm in the (in-fiction) author of the Silmarillion just being mistaken? - Iluvatar didn't create the whole world, but just a few bits of it.

The "harm" is that it changes the meaning of the mythos and cosmology.

It's like claiming that there can't be a king of England AND also a king of France!
No it's not. Neither of those kings claims to rule the whole of the universe. They're self-confessedly parochial in their reach and ambitions.

A better comparison would be the competing claims of the Pope and the Holy Roman Emperor. And the resolution of those claims did change the meaning of both offices.
 

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My position in that post is that change in mechanics is comparable to change in fiction for the game overall.

By positing some hypothetical table that LOVES the published rules and playing with them, but then doesn't care about the published setting material or playing with it, you're not showing that my position is wrong, you're just saying that there's some tables that put more emphasis on the published rules than they do on the published fiction. That's true, it's fine, it's great, I'd expect a lot of those folks in this thread, but in as much as tables don't match your hypothetical (and among millions of players, I'm positive that many don't!), your hypothetical doesn't matter.

Your position is not held by the people actually making the game and doesn't seem to matter to them. WotC demonstrated that when they completely ignored established lore to make Faerun into two worlds, with terms that once referred to one world suddenly referring to two. And when they made mummies evil. And when they made eladrin elves.

If the people who make the game don't seem to hold lore as equal to mechanics, why should anyone else be expected to?

If we were talking about specific settings, this wouldn't be a major concern. If Eberron wants to have different drow, that's cool. If some DM wants to have different drow, that's between her and her table. If WotC wants to publish a product that says Drow in D&D are now entirely different then they were in previous editions, we run into a disruption of play. Same thing happens if WotC publishes Eberron and now Drow are spider-worshipers there.

5E treats drow differently than every edition prior; they're one of the player races in the core rules. 5E also treats succubi differently. 4E treated eladrin and gnomes differently than prior editions (gnomes were removed as a core race). And even in lore, WotC has been unafraid to treat drow differently; Drizzt is only the most famous of the good drow, establishing that drow can be massively different even in-setting from their core rules established lore.

That isn't what I said. I said you care more about mechanics (at least in published products). You use the mechanics from the book. You don't use the story from the book. It doesn't seem controversial to suggest that you care more about the thing you use than the thing you don't.

Where did I say I don't use the story? How can I change aspects of the story to adapt it to my group if I am not using it?

There is a massive difference between canon and story. Especially when it comes to an activity where there is player choice involved. Canon might be that Mollie Milkmaid survived Dragon Attack 33 at Generic Town, but when playing the actual module the players fail to save her or even kill her themselves. Problems like this cropping up are why it is that smart video game makers make it a point to be as vague as humanly possible when referring to events of prior games when you can't port over save data that has player actions. And why the idea of porting saves between games was so important to the Mass Effect series.

Roleplaying games are set-up to be a framework for you to tell your own stories. The canon exists to give you an idea of what the setting is like, but not to prevent you from changing it as DM or your players from changing it through actions in roleplay. After all, what does it matter if the canon says Lord Neverember is to continue to rule Neverwinter if the player characters chopped his head off and left it on a pike the first time they met him? And what does it matter if you change something within the setting to fit within a group's roleplaying preferences (such as making ogres from Pathfinder less offensive to even have in a game).

I care about the story as written in those works. But I also know it won't be a good idea to always tell it the same way that it was told in those works. Or even to keep the same elements when the group themselves don't like some elements. And because I know WotC will change lore as they feel like at the first opportunity when publishing a new edition.
 
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This is like asking, Where's the harm in someone in FR being simply mistaken about Ao? (? I think I've got that right) - that Ao is not the overgod, but just a localally prominent figure.

Ao was completely unknown up until the Avatar Crisis. The entire world was in fact mistaken in thinking that the gods were the highest power.

Or, Where's the harm in the (in-fiction) author of the Silmarillion just being mistaken? - Iluvatar didn't create the whole world, but just a few bits of it.

The barbarian tribes, Easterlings, etc., have no idea who Iluvatar is. They are in fact mistaken in their beliefs.
 

Your position is not held by the people actually making the game and doesn't seem to matter to them. WotC demonstrated that when they completely ignored established lore to make Faerun into two worlds, with terms that once referred to one world suddenly referring to two. And when they made mummies evil. And when they made eladrin elves.

If the people who make the game don't seem to hold lore as equal to mechanics, why should anyone else be expected to?

:confused: :confused: Wait are you inferring that "the people who make the game" hold mechanical consistency across editions in any higher regard than they do lore?
 

:confused: :confused: Wait are you inferring that "the people who make the game" hold mechanical consistency across editions in any higher regard than they do lore?

Yes. But then, they don't have to hold either in anything resembling high regard to hold one in higher regard than another.

By the way the game mechanics and lore changes have been done, it's pretty obvious they do the game mechanics first and then try to figure out how the lore fits after. This would explain why they switch the core setting every edition since WotC took over.
 
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This is like asking, Where's the harm in someone in FR being simply mistaken about Ao? (? I think I've got that right) - that Ao is not the overgod, but just a localally prominent figure.

Or, Where's the harm in the (in-fiction) author of the Silmarillion just being mistaken? - Iluvatar didn't create the whole world, but just a few bits of it.

The "harm" is that it changes the meaning of the mythos and cosmology.

I'm the DM, I've already changed how the mythos & cosmology works long ago. There's been no harm. In my games there's many different ways to envision how the universe works. Like the story of the blind guys examining the elephant.
The adventures & campaigns I run don't focus on it, so I never bother explaining it to the players. Though now & then I'll inform them if something DOESN'T work how they assume - if it's important ruleswise Otherwise? It's all equally "true".
 


By the way the game mechanics and lore changes have been done, it's pretty obvious they do the game mechanics first and then try to figure out how the lore fits after. This would explain why they switch the core setting every edition since WotC took over.

I think that was true during the 4e changes but Mearls has said that in 5e story is more important then mechanics so I suspect in this case the mechanics had to fit the lore.
 

I think that was true during the 4e changes but Mearls has said that in 5e story is more important then mechanics so I suspect in this case the mechanics had to fit the lore.

I would believe that if they were actually saying anything about lore and if the mechanics changes didn't make one entire setting effectively impossible to port to 5E. I know in my heart we will never see a true 5E conversion of Eberron because psionics and magic item creation are so key to that setting that I don't think it's even compatible with 5E. That's one where Pathfinder seems a better fit.
 

You have obviously never heard of the King of France.
?? Currently there isn't one.

When there was one, he never claimed to be ruler of the world. In fact - given that he acted independently of the Holy Roman Emperor (once, following the deaths of Charlemagne and Louis, he ceased to hold that title) - his claim to kingship depended upon not claiming to be a universal monarch.
 

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