D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

[pemerton]

This is so untenable that it is practically absurd.

By this logic, every sequel to a work of art (book, Movie or such) changes the Lore. Empire Strikes Back? Lore change. Two Towers? Lore change.

Let's go even further; every issue of a comic book changes the Lore. Every episode of a TV show changes the Lore. Every supplement, module or spin-off changes the Lore. You reduce change to a point it's a useless measurement; literally everything after the first part is Lore change.

The distinction between "mere" addition, addition that changes, and rewriting, is just not that clear.
[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s Star Wars example is a good one - even when I was in primary school, I could tell that changing Luke and Leia to brother and sister cast a different light on their earlier romantic relationship.

Locking down Demogorgon's home layer, or making Mezzodaemons Blood War mercenaries, or whatever, are all changes to what came before - they fill in gaps, and add new meaning that wasn't there before.

To compare to comics: having Spider-Man stop some bank robbers is not a change to the lore, even if those particular bank robbers have never appeared in a Marvel comic before. But (say) killing of Jean DeWolff isn't just an addition (of a murder) to the fictional world; it's changing something.

What about deciding that Jean DeWolff keeps Spider-Man clippings? Well, that doesn't contradict anything, but it's clearly a change in the nature of the relationship. (A bit like the Star Wars example, though in the opposite direction.)

In any composition (visual, literary, musical) an addition can be a significant change because of the way it casts new light, or alters the relationship between, the already-established elements. I mean, would anyone deny that adding in an extra figure would change the meaning of The Last Supper?

 

[Shasarak]

In any composition (visual, literary, musical) an addition can be a significant change because of the way it casts new light, or alters the relationship between, the already-established elements. I mean, would anyone deny that adding in an extra figure would change the meaning of The Last Supper?

You mean that adding an extra person to the Last Supper would be a problem but somehow changing Jesus into a White guy is OK?

 

[Shasarak]

Have you read OA? There is a Celestial Bureacracy, headed by a Celestial Emperor. Spirits report to him. There is no suggestion in the text that the Celestial Emperor is, in fact, just a mis-named Parochial Governor.

No one is arguing that he is not the top Governor of his lands but to imagine anything greater is to ignore the rest of the book detailing how Kara Tur is just one continent in the world.

 

[pemerton]

No one is arguing that he is not the top Governor of his lands but to imagine anything greater is to ignore the rest of the book detailing how Kara Tur is just one continent in the world.

Kara-Tur is just one continent in the world. But there is no general rule in D&D that each continent has its own divine hierarchy, it's own thunder god, it's own god of the sea, etc.

 

[pemerton]

You mean that adding an extra person to the Last Supper would be a problem but somehow changing Jesus into a White guy is OK?

I don't understand what you are talking about.

I didn't say anything about The Last Supper as a representation of history (which I think would violate board rules). I'm talking about it as a work of art.

 

[Shasarak]

Kara-Tur is just one continent in the world. But there is no general rule in D&D that each continent has its own divine hierarchy, it's own thunder god, it's own god of the sea, etc.

Now I have to ask if you have read the OA because it is obviously designed to fit right into your existing campaign world complete with sections about how to introduce your gajin characters into Kara Tur. You just have to read the preface by Gary and Zeb to understand that this is an additional product not a stand alone one.

In the section on Gajin characters it specifically states that "a change of location does nothing to affect the abilities of the character" so obviously a Gajin Cleric would still keep getting his power from what ever non-Celestial Bureaucratic power he happens to worship.

Now I understand that you can change anything that you want in your game and on the other hand it is probably a good idea to preface your statements with "In my game...there is only the Celestial Emperor" so that we all know that you are talking about your specific situation.

 

[Shasarak]

I don't understand what you are talking about.

I didn't say anything about The Last Supper as a representation of history (which I think would violate board rules). I'm talking about it as a work of art.

As long as we remember that it is a work of art and not actually a representation of history then who cares if there is an extra person at the table?

 

[pemerton]

As long as we remember that it is a work of art and not actually a representation of history then who cares if there is an extra person at the table?

I still don't understand.

The Last Supper is one of the most famous artworks in the European tradition, which is why I chose it as my example. The idea that nothing of significance would be changed about it by sketching in an extra figure is bizarre.

If you don't like the Last Supper as an example, consider Botticelli's Birth of Venus instead. Who would suggest that it makes no difference to the picture to (say) insert a dolphin in the lower LH corner.

 

[Imaro]

Yes, absolutely it does. Every one of your examples changes things. New ideas are introduced and relationships are changed.

Hey, remember how in Star Wars Luke and Leia were kinda having a thing? Remember how that changed after Empire when Luke discovers he's been trying to bone his sister? Not a change? Really? That relationship didn't change at all? I didn't know Star Wars and George RR Martin had that much in common.

I'm finding it hard to even follow the mental gyrations and pedantry necessary for this argument but I'm curious to see how far this goes...Did Star Wars canon change the minute they introduced Darth Vader in the first movie? He wasn't in the movie before he was introduced so that's changing canon right? Did they change cannon when the opening scroll proclaimed it took place in a "galaxy far, far away"? Before that it wasn't established where it took place... In fact everything changes canon according to your definition so how do we ever establish canon or lore since, according to you, anything added is a change?

In other words your simplistic definition of change eliminates the very creation of canon and lore... that's why most here find it absurd.

 

[Imaro]

Kara-Tur is just one continent in the world. But there is no general rule in D&D that each continent has its own divine hierarchy, it's own thunder god, it's own god of the sea, etc.

I find it amusing that someone who considers their subjective interpretation of the LotR canon... now disregards the implied elements of the OA setting to suit his argument...