D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

[Hussar]

Let's stick with the idea of addition doesn't equal change for a moment. If you were to define what the Force can do in D&D, and stopped at any given movie, the answer would be significantly different.

After A New Hope, the Force can (note, I'm going from memory here, so I might miss stuff):

• influence lesser minds
• influence your actions
• choke someone
• detect the presence of other Force users.

After Empire Strikes Back, the Force can:

• lift a several ton spaceship
• bring people back from the dead as ghosts
• allows for spectacular physical feats
• block blaster bolts
• allows for telepathy
• tell the future

After Return of the Jedi, the Force can:

• throw lightning bolts from your fingers

After The Phantom Menace, the Force can:

• impregnate women

Now, none of those movies contradict what came before. But a game based on a specific point in the series would radically change what a Force user would be capable of. All additions and all pretty significant changes.

 

[Hussar]

But, again, we're seeing the disingenuous nature of this discussion. I mean, the whole Luke/Leia romance thing isn't something we're just making up. This is a point that has been discussed at great length by fandom. The establishment of Luke and Leia as siblings was a pretty significant change from what was presented in A New Hope. Never minding the scene in Empire when Luke is in the hospital. That wasn't a sibling kiss. I dunno about you, but, I don't think I'd kiss my sister lengthily on the lips and not expect an "EUGGGHH" reaction.

But, we're supposed to ignore all that. It's not "really" a change. It's just... errr... an addition. Because addition isn't change... for reasons.... errr... don't look at it too closely lest the house of cards spontaneously combust.

If addition wasn't change, the revelation of Vader as Luke's father wouldn't be a shock that has become an oft misquoted meme. After all, if addition was just something we shrug our shoulders about and move on, then this scene would have no impact. But, it does. We don't expect this revelation. It completely changes the relationships in the story up to this point. Luke and Leia's budding romance dies. Obi Wan is revealed as lying to Luke all the way along (what else is he lying about?) and becomes a distrusted character. Han and Leia's romance is allowed to go forward. The relationship between Vader and Luke becomes a whole lot more complicated. Before, Luke was only interested in defeating Vader. Now, he wants to redeem his father. So on and so forth.

/edit to add

Oh, and let's not forget. At the end of Empire, they didn't know if Ford was coming back for RotJ. It was quite possible that Solo was going to be killed off completely. The reveal of Leia as Luke's sister comes in RotJ, because Ford returned for the third movie. That whole bit of Star Wars lore owes everything to a decision that had nothing to do with story or the fans and everything to do with marketing. Had Ford not returned for RotJ, Leia and Luke would be the ones married now.

 

[pemerton]

I assume that drawing was the slow part of it and that the stories were written faster than they could be drawn.

No. I don't know about today, but when comics were produced "the Marvel Way", the writer sketched an outline, the artist then drew it up and thereby established the story details, and the writer then wrote in the dialogue.

Have a continutiy department work with the authors to greenlight the stories, which were certainly written for month in advance for the artists to catch up with their drawing.

The stories weren't being written "months in advance".

And Marvel had editors, and (later) line editors (eg Bob Harras was in charge of all the X-Men comics), and editors-in-chief.

So what you got was the best that these people could do.

There is not an infinite pot of time and money to do what you want them to have done. And it's not clear it would make for better comics, either. Would Supervillain Team-Up have been better if an editor had veto-ed the idea that Doctor Doom had released a mind control gas that filled the whole of the earth's atmosphere? (Something that did not factor into the continuity of the mainstream comices; for some discussion, see here.)

That depends on whether it changes previously etablished facts. If the names of the 13 participants were unknown before, than naming each one doesn't change the previously stated event. If we add a 14 we change the previously etablished fact that there were only 13 people present.[/FONT]

This reinforces my point in my post immediately upthread: that lists are being treated as the be-all and end-all.

Let's turn away from the Last Supper, and suppose that the 13 people are 13 dead king of the Rohirrim. And then we are told that their names are Alf, Bob, Charlie, Duke, Ernie, Frank, Gus, Harry, Indiana, Jules, Kerry, Linus and Mo. You don't think that would count as a significant change to the fiction?

 

[Mercule]

It started as a game certainly. But it also has almost 300 novels just for forgotten realm alone

D&D is a game. The novels may be an introduction our lure to the game, but they are not part of the game. Thus is where I think the "D&D brand" strategy had failed.

There is a Forgotten Realms brand, which includes some D&D game material, some novels, some video games, and will soon include a movie.

There is a Planescape brand that has similar components (sans movie). Ditto Greyhawk and Eberron. Dragonlance lacks the video game, too.

Then, there is also a D&D brand. It exists to serve the tabletop game and it's canon consists of what is, essentially meta-lore. Things like chromatic and metallic dragons are part of the D&D canon. The D&D canon serves as a launching point for the related brands. Sometimes, this flows two ways. Sometimes it didn't.



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[Shasarak]

Sorry, I'm getting a bit lost here, but, aren't YOU the one claiming that addition is not changing?

Adding another person at the table would be changing no? Same as changing the color of the representation of Jesus? Is it somehow different?

If Tom Hanks has taught us nothing, the fact that "one of the most famous artworks in the European tradition" is a fake already makes it hilariously ironic to try and hold up as some kind of example of "canon" in the first place.

Besides what good reason do you have to not give Chris Rock, the 14th Apostle, his rightful place at the table?

 

[Mirtek]

That wasn't a sibling kiss.

Who ever claimed it was? At this point Luke and Leia didn't know their relationship and thus didn't kiss as sister and brother. Later when she learns that he's her brother and that settles her feeling for him once and for all she also uses this fact to calm Han.

I dunno about you, but, I don't think I'd kiss my sister lengthily on the lips and not expect an "EUGGGHH" reaction.

Would we if we didn't know it was our sister, didn't even know we had a sister? Who knows.

Important is they did not just re-edit the first movie to remove the scene and told everybody that the new take is that such a scene was never included and that's the official take going forward.

D&D is a game. The novels may be an introduction our lure to the game, but they are not part of the game. Thus is where I think the "D&D brand" strategy had failed.

There is a Forgotten Realms brand, which includes some D&D game material, some novels, some video games, and will soon include a movie.

There is a Planescape brand that has similar components (sans movie). Ditto Greyhawk and Eberron. Dragonlance lacks the video game, too.

Then, there is also a D&D brand.

But one of their selling points was/is that they all exist together and characters from Krynn can visit Oerth or important stuff happening in Planescape can effect later FR adventures.

Just like the current "arrowverse" DC series, where Arrow, Flash and Legends all take place in the same universe with crossovers ranging from merely visiting characters to whole storylines which suddenly resolve into nothing if you only follow one series, because the conclusion happend in the other series.

 

[Hussar]

If Tom Hanks has taught us nothing, the fact that "one of the most famous artworks in the European tradition" is a fake already makes it hilariously ironic to try and hold up as some kind of example of "canon" in the first place.

Besides what good reason do you have to not give Chris Rock, the 14th Apostle, his rightful place at the table?

You didn't answer the question though. Which is it? Is adding a 14th character to The Last Supper changing the picture or not? After all, you're the one claiming that addition is not change. I'm arguing the opposite. That addition IS change, just like subtraction or substitution. There is no difference. Remove an element, add an element, or transmute an element, you still get a different answer after the equal sign.
[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]'s claim that 1=2 notwithstanding.

 

[Hussar]

Who ever claimed it was? At this point Luke and Leia didn't know their relationship and thus didn't kiss as sister and brother. Later when she learns that he's her brother and that settles her feeling for him once and for all she also uses this fact to calm Han.
Would we if we didn't know it was our sister, didn't even know we had a sister? Who knows.

Important is they did not just re-edit the first movie to remove the scene and told everybody that the new take is that such a scene was never included and that's the official take going forward.

Missing the point. The relationship CHANGED. This additional information changes how one character feels about another. (Actually, it changes the relationship of pretty much every major character in the films)

Addition=change.

No one is arguing that transformation (editing after the fact) or subtraction isn't change. Of course those are changes as well. What's being argued is that ADDITION is also change.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Just like the current "arrowverse" DC series, where Arrow, Flash and Legends all take place in the same universe with crossovers ranging from merely visiting characters to whole storylines which suddenly resolve into nothing if you only follow one series, because the conclusion happend in the other series.[/FONT]

Which is something I LOATHE about what Planescape did to D&D. Now, events occurring in a completely different setting that I don't follow, and don't care about, have impact on the lore of my game. Everything bleeds over. Soth's story continues in Ravenloft. Vecna goes all over the place. On and on and on.

I would much, much prefer settings to be distinct from each other. This whole multiverse change that TSR forced on us in the 90's that has been continued to today needs to die in a fire.

 

[Shasarak]

You didn't answer the question though. Which is it? Is adding a 14th character to The Last Supper changing the picture or not? After all, you're the one claiming that addition is not change. I'm arguing the opposite. That addition IS change, just like subtraction or substitution. There is no difference. Remove an element, add an element, or transmute an element, you still get a different answer after the equal sign.
[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]'s claim that 1=2 notwithstanding.

The picture has already been changed and now you want to quibble about additional changes? No one is using that picture as an example of Dinner parties in Judea circa 30 AD.