D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

[Maxperson]

I think you've missed part of the conversation. [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] was claiming that there are significant numbers of gamers out there that only play core and care about lore.

Fair enough. In 2e core there are no Eladrin.

My point is that if you've only played core there really isn't much in the way of lore.

This is still wrong, though. The 2e MM was pretty thick on lore. Here is the Doppleganger.

The doppleganger is a master of mimicry that survives by taking the shapes of men, demihumans, and humanoids. Dopplegangers are bipedal and generally humanoid in appearance. Their bodies are covered with a thick, hairless gray hide, which gives them a natural AC of 5. They are, however, rarely seen in their true forms.

Combat: This monster is able to assume the shape of any humanoid creature between four and eight feet high. The doppleganger chooses a victim, duplicates his form, and then attempts to kill the original and assume his place. The doppleganger is able to use ESP and can imitate its victim with 90% accuracy, even duplicating the victim's clothing and equipment. If unsuccessful in taking its victim's place, the doppleganger attacks, relying on the ensuing confusion to make it indistinguishable from its victim. A doppleganger is immune to sleep and charm spells and rolls all saving throws as if he was a 10th-level fighter. Dopplegangers work in groups and act together to ensure that their attacks and infiltrations are successful. They are very intelligent and usually take the time to plan their attacks with care. If a group of the monsters spots some potential victims, the dopplegangers often trail their targets, waiting for a good chance to strike, choosing their time and opportunity with care. They may wait until nightfall, or until their victims are alone, or even follow them to an inn.

Habitat/Society: Dopplegangers are rumored to be artificial beings that were created long ago by a powerful wizard or godling. They were originally intended to be used as spies and assassins in an ancient, highly magical war. Their creator died long ago, but they live on, still working as spies for evil powers, thieves, and government. They have even been known to work as assassins. All dopplegangers belong to a single tribe. Although this is rare, groups of dopplegangers can be found anywhere at any time, and in unexpected locations. Working as a unit, they select a group of victims, such as a family or a group of travelers. Basically lazy, dopplegangers find it easier to survive and live comfortably by taking humanoid, and especially human, shape. They prefer to take the form of someone comfortably provided for, and shun assuming the form of hardworking peasants. Since they are only 90% accurate in their mimicry, most dopplegangers are eventually discovered and driven out, and then forced once more to assume a new shape.

Dopplegangers are found most often in their true forms in a dungeon or in the wilderness. Groups often set up a lair in an area well-suited to ambush and surprise, patrolling a regular territory. These bands make a good living by attacking weak humanoid monsters or travelers and stealing their food and treasure. If food and treasure are scarce, they hire out to a powerful wizard or thieves' guild. A doppleganger who has been hired to replace a specific person will plan its attack with special care, learning as much about the victim and his environment as it can.

The dopplegangers' weaknesses are greed and cowardice. They spend their lives in avid pursuit of gold and other wealth. If attacking a group of adventurers, for example, they often choose the richest-looking one to attack first. If they target a party of adventurers, the dopplegangers wait until the party is on the way out of the dungeon and heading back to town. Since they are cowardly, however, they prefer to take the easiest route toward riches. A doppleganger who chooses a rich adventurer avoids risks once the treasure is safely in hand, and retreats at the earliest opportunity, making some plausible excuse for separating from the human members of the group. They sometimes hire out as spies and assassins for money as well.

Ecology: Dopplegangers are sophisticated and dangerous parasites, living off the labors of others. They must also be reckoned with as clever and effective spies and assassins who can wreak political mayhem in positions of power. Evil wizards have on rare occasions controlled entire kingdoms for short periods of time by replacing a king, prince, or councilor with a doppleganger.

That's some pretty darn tootin impressive lore for core.

 

[pemerton]

"A quirk of a certain approach"? You have any idea how dismissive that reads? Probably not since you just repeated it.

<snip>

We more or less passively consume movies and novels while we are required to take an active role in RPGs, writing the stories with our choices in play rather than just witnessing someone else's story. So the applicability of your arguments is limited. More and better information gives us more material to play on, more to deepen our immersion, and more to share that's relevant.

I call it a "quirk of a certain approach" not to dismiss it, but to make the point that it is only one way to approach RPGing, which many of its advocates nevertheless treat as if exhausts the range of feasible approaches.

I mean, think about the phrases "more and better information", "more material to play on", "deepen our immersion". The idea that these desires are met by (say) economic specifications, or maps, or ecological information, is one way to undertand them.

But think about other ways to engage the gameworld. If my game is hoping to recreate the atmosphere of (say) the Battle at Helm's Deep (either as penned by JRRT or filmed by Peter Jackson), then information about the cost or weight of a hauberk is irrelevant. But the fact that (say) one of the orc lieutenants led an assault on my family's village; or the knowledge that my elvish rival has killed more orcs than me in the battle so far; might be highly salient.

D&D has never really embraced in official publications (I would say 4e comes closest, though 5e would come closer if monsters had not only defeault alignments but default bonds, ideals and flaws, and these were keyed into resolution more generally than just social interaction).

To return to a different example of serial fiction that has loomed fairly large in this thread: the Marvel universe would not be more immersive if it actually spelled out how Tony Stark affords his expenses, how the FF affords the Baxter Building, how Prof X is able to pay for the Danger Room and the Blackbird.

Those things are important in a certain sort of accountancy-focused resource-management game; but these are not essential to immersive RPGing per se.

 

[pemerton]

RPGers like to talk about their characters, their campaigns. But if there's nothing in common with their own games and experiences, no common connections, nobody wants to be the poor bastards listening to them. Shared canon enables shared interest and shared games like nothing completely disconnected games and campaigns can achieve.

I share Hussar's view on this.

And maybe I'm an outlier, but if someone is telling me about their campaign what makes it interesting is the interesting stuff in it. It doesn't become more interesting to me because it echoes my campaign.

It's so ironic that all I heard for years was how 4e WotC was "forcing" people to play a certain way and "telling" gamers how to play the game and that was a bad thing. But, if I wrap up telling you how to play and forcing you to play the way I want you to play inside a nice big bag of canon, everyone seems to just line right up and stand at attention.

This, raised to some high power!

This thread prompted me to re-read Worlds & Monsters. Here are some extracts:

p 70: With a single core pantheon . . . [w]e can paint a cleric of Ioun, sculpt a paladin of Pelor, and write about a temple of Tiamat. It's easy enough for players and Dungeon Masters who don't use the core pantheon to translate names and accoutrements to fit the pantheon they are using.

p 73: Obviously, and individual Dungeon Master can do whatever he or she wants, but why have archons in the game if their role is limited to reminding players that good deities also have loads of minions?

p 74: Since the publication of the 1st Edition Monster Manual, Asmodeus has stood out as one of the greatest villains in the D&D game. . . . Yet, when't the last time that you saw an adventure that pitted the heroes against his machinations? . . . Obviously, a DM can do anything he or she wants with D&D and the setting material we provide. However, we hope that Asmodeus's promotion [to the status of god] makes DMs think about using him and his diabolic legions as major campaign villains .​

These extracts (1) make it clear that there was no "change for change's sake". The changes were reasoned: eg, just drawing on the quoted passages, the change to celestials is designed to remove the implication that heroes are ultimately redundant because good gods have their own servitors. And (2) make it clear that nothing was being "forced down people's throats". The 4e designers clearly took it for granted that people who didn't like their lore wouldn't use it. Which doesn't seem very radical to me.

 

[pemerton]

The 2e MM was pretty thick on lore. Here is the Doppleganger.

<snip>

That's some pretty darn tootin impressive lore for core.

To be honest, I don't find it all that impressive. I don't really see how it adds much to the classic D&D account of doppelgangers.

Dopplegangers are bipedal and generally humanoid in appearance. Their bodies are covered with a thick, hairless gray hide

This adds nothing to a picture: they're bipedal humanoids with grey skin.

which gives them a natural AC of 5. . . .

A doppleganger is immune to sleep and charm spells and rolls all saving throws as if he was a 10th-level fighter. . . .

They are very intelligent

This is all mechanical stuff.

The doppleganger is a master of mimicry that survives by taking the shapes of men, demihumans, and humanoids.

. . .

Dopplegangers are . . . rarely seen in their true forms. . . .

This monster is able to assume the shape of any humanoid creature between four and eight feet high. The doppleganger chooses a victim, duplicates his form, and then attempts to kill the original and assume his place. The doppleganger is able to use ESP and can imitate its victim with 90% accuracy, even duplicating the victim's clothing and equipment.

This is the key doppelganger ability, though stated at some length.

If unsuccessful in taking its victim's place, the doppleganger attacks, relying on the ensuing confusion to make it indistinguishable from its victim.

. . .

Dopplegangers work in groups and act together to ensure that their attacks and infiltrations are successful. . . . and usually take the time to plan their attacks with care. If a group of the monsters spots some potential victims, the dopplegangers often trail their targets, waiting for a good chance to strike, choosing their time and opportunity with care. They may wait until nightfall, or until their victims are alone, or even follow them to an inn.

. . .

[G]roups of dopplegangers can be found anywhere at any time, and in unexpected locations. Working as a unit, they select a group of victims, such as a family or a group of travelers. Basically lazy, dopplegangers find it easier to survive and live comfortably by taking humanoid, and especially human, shape. They prefer to take the form of someone comfortably provided for, and shun assuming the form of hardworking peasants. Since they are only 90% accurate in their mimicry, most dopplegangers are eventually discovered and driven out, and then forced once more to assume a new shape.

. . .

Groups often set up a lair in an area well-suited to ambush and surprise, patrolling a regular territory. These bands make a good living by attacking weak humanoid monsters or travelers and stealing their food and treasure. If food and treasure are scarce, they hire out to a powerful wizard or thieves' guild.

. . .

The dopplegangers' weaknesses are greed and cowardice. They spend their lives in avid pursuit of gold and other wealth. If attacking a group of adventurers, for example, they often choose the richest-looking one to attack first. If they target a party of adventurers, the dopplegangers wait until the party is on the way out of the dungeon and heading back to town. Since they are cowardly, however, they prefer to take the easiest route toward riches. A doppleganger who chooses a rich adventurer avoids risks once the treasure is safely in hand, and retreats at the earliest opportunity, making some plausible excuse for separating from the human members of the group.

. . .

A doppleganger who has been hired to replace a specific person will plan its attack with special care, learning as much about the victim and his environment as it can.

. . .

Dopplegangers are sophisticated and dangerous parasites, living off the labors of others.

This is all pretyy basic stuff. Some of it is restates their ability to imitate others, and extrapolating fairly obviously from it. Some of it is restates their CE alignment (EDIT: I just checked - AD&D changes them from Chaotic to Neutral - so rather than restating their alignment, it seems to contradict the change by reasserting their original alignment!). Some of its seems oddly contradictory: they are "basically lazy", yet they "plan their attacks with care".

They were originally intended to be used as spies and assassins in an ancient, highly magical war. Their creator died long ago, but they live on, still working as spies for evil powers, thieves, and government. They have even been known to work as assassins.

<snip>

They sometimes hire out as spies and assassins for money as well.

<snip>

They must also be reckoned with as clever and effective spies and assassins who can wreak political mayhem in positions of power. Evil wizards have on rare occasions controlled entire kingdoms for short periods of time by replacing a king, prince, or councilor with a doppleganger.

There is a fair bit of repetation here, and redundancy (do we really need to be told that "they live on"?). This adds very little to the basics of doppelgangers: they obviously are well-suited to being spies and assassins.

Dopplegangers are rumored to be artificial beings that were created long ago by a powerful wizard or godling. . . . All dopplegangers belong to a single tribe.

This is genuinely new. The "single tribe" doesn't seem that interesting, given that the notion of "tribes" has traditionally played no roll in relation to doppelgangers. But the bit about "artificial beings" is potentially interesting. Notice also that, as [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] said, it is presented as a rumour ie in the voice of an unreliable narrator.

To be frank, that entry reinforces my general impression of the 2nd ed AD&D monster entries - many words, but between repetition and redunancy rather little actual content.

It reminds me of this comment from Mearls in Worlds & Monsters (p 62): "If you make a fire lizard, for example, it's tempting to want a frost lizard too. But if the frost lizard is just a fire lizard with 'cold' substituted for 'fire' the result hardly qualifies as professional game design. Even a rookie Dungeon Master can make that change."

The idea that doppelgangers live in groups, target rich adventurers with ambushes, and when there are no rich adventurers make money as spies and assassins, seems to fit into the same category. It's very obvious extrapolation from the basic monster feature, which is unchanged in both flavour and mechanical implementation.

 

[Yaztromo]

Of course it depends from the situation and frow what the players want.
In general, when I started running games I was following pretty closely the "official" script and the more time passes the more I feel free to move away from it anytime I think it's fine (often). On a 50-50 situation, I'll usually deviate from "canon" to prevent metaplotting and keep player on their toes, as many players go and read the modules that you are running or read / played them long time before and remember quite a few detail... in general, if I have the impression that some of the player is acting too "wisely" and taking advantage over other players that are genuinely roleplaying I do deviate more than usual from canon.

 

[Imaro]

To be honest, I don't find it all that impressive. I don't really see how it adds much to the classic D&D account of doppelgangers.

So now we've moved from proving the claim by @Hussar that there was only unreliable/no lore before 3e to... does the lore of AD&D 2e impress pemerton. I don't find it surprising whatsoever that you don't find the lore of 2e impressive, especially since your favorite edition is 4e which changed and discarded a majority of said lore. But just for some context let's take a look at the 1e monster manual excerpt as well and com are it to what came before...

These bipedal creatures are of mutable form so that they ore able to shape
themselves into the likeness of any humanoid creature of from 4‘ to 8 tall
which they observe. Having become the double for a person they attempt
to do away with that victim and assume its place. If unable to do this, the
doppleganger will simply attack, counting on the confusion engendered
to make it indistinguishable from the creature it is mimicking (surprise
means this works). Dopplegangers are able to ESP and imitate with 90%
accuracy. They are subject to neither sleep nor charm spells. Despite
having only 4 hit dice they make all saving throws as if they were 10th
level fighting men.
Note: A doppleganger actually forms itself into the likeness of the clothing
and equipment of the imitated creature as well as the physical features
thereof.

This adds nothing to a picture: they're bipedal humanoids with grey skin.

You do realize before this there is no mention of skin color, being hairless or having a hide in 1e... right? I'm confuised on how that adds nothing to the picture that 1e AD&D presented which doesn't really describe what a doppleganager looks like in it's natural form.

This is all mechanical stuff.

aNd yet I've seen you claim mechanical stuff in 4e fleshes out the monsters... why is this any different? Also this is the first time they are called out as intelligent which the 1e entry doesn't mention...

This is the key doppelganger ability, though stated at some length.

This is all pretyy basic stuff. Some of it is restates their ability to imitate others, and extrapolating fairly obviously from it. Some of it is restates their CE alignment (EDIT: I just checked - AD&D changes them from Chaotic to Neutral - so rather than restating their alignment, it seems to contradict the change by reasserting their original alignment!). Some of its seems oddly contradictory: they are "basically lazy", yet they "plan their attacks with care".

There is a fair bit of repetation here, and redundancy (do we really need to be told that "they live on"?). This adds very little to the basics of doppelgangers: they obviously are well-suited to being spies and assassins.

Yep... are you claiming that this stuff isn't part of the lore? Remember we are speaking to whether there is or isn't lore in AD&D 2e not whether it impresses you specifically. Which we don't really have or care about the criteria for. I don't see any of this mentioned in the 1e lore... so I'm curious when you claim it doesn't add anything new to the basics of dopplegangers... I have to ask what basics are you referring to?

This is genuinely new. The "single tribe" doesn't seem that interesting, given that the notion of "tribes" has traditionally played no roll in relation to doppelgangers. But the bit about "artificial beings" is potentially interesting. Notice also that, as @Hussar said, it is presented as a rumour ie in the voice of an unreliable narrator.

Again we don't care if it is interesting to you in particular... it is lore. And yes one sentence out of the entire entry which puts forth numerous fact about dopplegangers that were not in the 1e monster manual ios written from the unreliable perspective... I'm sorry but that's a far cry from most to all of the lore being written in that tone.

To be frank, that entry reinforces my general impression of the 2nd ed AD&D monster entries - many words, but between repetition and redunancy rather little actual content.

Looking at the 1e lore and then the 2e lore I find it hard to understand this position.

It reminds me of this comment from Mearls in Worlds & Monsters (p 62): "If you make a fire lizard, for example, it's tempting to want a frost lizard too. But if the frost lizard is just a fire lizard with 'cold' substituted for 'fire' the result hardly qualifies as professional game design. Even a rookie Dungeon Master can make that change."

The idea that doppelgangers live in groups, target rich adventurers with ambushes, and when there are no rich adventurers make money as spies and assassins, seems to fit into the same category. It's very obvious extrapolation from the basic monster feature, which is unchanged in both flavour and mechanical implementation.

Why would we assume they all come from the same tribe? Were created to be assassins and spies in a great magical war ? That their creator died? They work efficiently as groups? That they are both greedy and cowardly? That they have grey hides and are hairless in their natural forms. None of this is in the 1e monster manual... and yes someone could create all of it but then they are creating lore that was not there.

On a side note I was curious about the lore for the doppleganger in the 4e MM... leaving out the mechanical stuff of course.

The consumate shapechanger, a doppleganger can bring entire kingdoms to ruin through duplicity and subterfuge without ever drawing a sword. Dopplegangers are much like humans in their behavior and as such, an individual doppleganger might have any disposition imaginable.

Doppleganger Lore
A character knows the following information with a successful Nature check
DC 15: A doppleganger might look like an eladrin wizard, a dwarf fighter, or even a dragonborn paladin. It can't duplicate a person's apparel or carried items, so it must dress and equip itself for the part. For this reason it keeps several changes of clothing.

Really... this is the gold standard for lore? What boils down to shapechangers who act any way they want and whose clothes don't change so they carry extras... talk about alot of words to say nothing... you're claiming 2e's lore doesn't add anything to the basic doppleganger (provably false) but IYO this is the standard it should be judged against... you're kidding me, right. I remember many had issues with 4e's lack of lore in it's MM and this is exactly an example of why.

 

[Shasarak]

I found this article (and Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast) by Robert Lamb where he goes into a deep dive on Mind Flayer lore and its real life science.

Personally it is this type of discussion of DnD Lore that I like, where you can talk about the shared world of DnD canon that is lacking when each table is an isolated silo of homebrewed material.

 

[Shasarak]

Really... this is the gold standard for lore? What boils down to shapechangers who act any way they want and whose clothes don't change so they carry extras... talk about alot of words to say nothing... you're claiming 2e's lore doesn't add anything to the basic doppleganger (provably false) but IYO this is the standard it should be judged against... you're kidding me, right. I remember many had issues with 4e's lack of lore in it's MM and this is exactly an example of why.

Hey man, it is lore for the new generation of ADD Gamers that need every thing fitted into 140 characters or less.

 

[billd91]

I call it a "quirk of a certain approach" not to dismiss it, but to make the point that it is only one way to approach RPGing, which many of its advocates nevertheless treat as if exhausts the range of feasible approaches.

I mean, think about the phrases "more and better information", "more material to play on", "deepen our immersion". The idea that these desires are met by (say) economic specifications, or maps, or ecological information, is one way to undertand them.

But think about other ways to engage the gameworld. If my game is hoping to recreate the atmosphere of (say) the Battle at Helm's Deep (either as penned by JRRT or filmed by Peter Jackson), then information about the cost or weight of a hauberk is irrelevant. But the fact that (say) one of the orc lieutenants led an assault on my family's village; or the knowledge that my elvish rival has killed more orcs than me in the battle so far; might be highly salient.

D&D has never really embraced in official publications (I would say 4e comes closest, though 5e would come closer if monsters had not only defeault alignments but default bonds, ideals and flaws, and these were keyed into resolution more generally than just social interaction).

To return to a different example of serial fiction that has loomed fairly large in this thread: the Marvel universe would not be more immersive if it actually spelled out how Tony Stark affords his expenses, how the FF affords the Baxter Building, how Prof X is able to pay for the Danger Room and the Blackbird.

Those things are important in a certain sort of accountancy-focused resource-management game; but these are not essential to immersive RPGing per se.

The weight of a hauberk is probably already figured into a character's stats (and any penalties suffered for encumbrance or affected skills) so it's not exactly irrelevant for all characters. And had Erkenbrand not been diligent about restoring and supplying the fortress, perhaps the cost of a hauberk might have an impact on its scarcity, particularly when adventurers ill equipped for a siege (having been traveling relatively lightly for some months and having spent the last few days jogging across the eastern marches after a party of orcs) show up and now are interested in beefing up their armor.

Regarding the Marvel Universe, there have been story lines involve such things as affording things from time to time. The FF went bankrupt, Professor X got support from Angel's corporation due to expenses, and lack of finances was a major character element for Hank Pym in the early 1980s when he hit rock bottom. There's not much detail, sure, but neither is there in D&D - just a bit here and there to provide a quick and dirty way to get things done. Though, of course, DMs can make more of an issue about it if they're more interested in keeping the adventurers poor and hungry for the next score along the lines of Conan or denizens of Sanctuary. After all, not every D&D campaign is going to be Lord of the Rings in style and tone (nor should they be).

 

[billd91]

I share Hussar's view on this.

And maybe I'm an outlier, but if someone is telling me about their campaign what makes it interesting is the interesting stuff in it. It doesn't become more interesting to me because it echoes my campaign.

You might as well be telling me about your aunt's college roommate's younger sister for all the relevance it has for me. I'm far more interested in comparing notes about how our adventuring groups dealt with the giant party room in the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, what approach other groups took, laughing at high points, and sympathizing with disasters.

This thread prompted me to re-read Worlds & Monsters. Here are some extracts:
...

p 73: Obviously, and individual Dungeon Master can do whatever he or she wants, but why have archons in the game if their role is limited to reminding players that good deities also have loads of minions?

Stop right there. Welcome to the tone that started to turn me right off 4e. With one hand they acknowledge, but with the other they taketh away...
What's the point of having servants of good in the game as potential encounters? Because PCs might be able to deal with them - just like any other NPC/monster in the game. Maybe the'd be more likely to deal with them in a peaceful fashion, being generally good and all that. But an evil party might throw down for a fight. They might negotiate an alliance and make use of an archon's magical abilities (lantern archons are kind of fun to summon via summon monster). Or maybe the archon has been bound to protect an area the PCs must traverse and they need to fight... but the good PCs don't want to do so in a lethal manner. A pretty good challenge being at loggerheads with someone who would otherwise be an ally.

Oh, but why allow for that? D&D isn't about finding fairy rings, it's about slaying horrible monsters so let's turn just about everything into horrible monsters that PCs can slay (like chaotic evil archons, seriously, from LG to CE in one edition flat).

And you wonder why people didn't think 4e was the D&D they remembered?