D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

[Jester David]

But that ignores the spells, the monsters, and the race and classes. Those, more than anything else, give D&D the closest thing it has to a set identity.

You can make any sort of lore changes you want, but if you can play an elf wizard casting fireball at a goblin with 6 HP and a 10 Dex who rolls a d20 to save, it's pretty much D&D.

Or Pathfinder. Or 13th Age. Or Shadow of the Demonlord. Or the World of Warcraft RPG.

(But not, ironically, 4th Edition D&D as the wizard would make an attack roll instead of the goblin making a save...)

 

[TwoSix]

Or Pathfinder. Or 13th Age. Or Shadow of the Demonlord. Or the World of Warcraft RPG.

(But not, ironically, 4th Edition D&D as the wizard would make an attack roll instead of the goblin making a save...)

All of which I'd consider D&D under another name. I mean, the WoW RPG came out under the OGL. And it heavily modified its core game conceits to make itself more D&D-like.

 

[innerdude]

Wow, this is the first time I've visited this thread. There was enough momentum behind this topic to generate 172 pages of responses? Color me . . . baffled.

You can make any sort of lore changes you want, but if you can play an elf wizard casting fireball at a goblin with 6 HP and a 10 Dex who rolls a d20 to save, it's pretty much D&D.

And if you can play a lizard man fighter/barbarian/rogue wielding a two-handed sword, who can also cast fireball at a goblin without taking any armor penalties, while not being forced into a rigid, inflexible set of character skills and feats because "only Class X can do that", you're playing something vastly better than D&D*.









*Savage Worlds FTW

 

[Jester David]

All of which I'd consider D&D under another name. I mean, the WoW RPG came out under the OGL. And it heavily modified its core game conceits to make itself more D&D-like.

Which just means you could argue almost every fantasy RPG is effectively D&D. Which isn't very useful definition.

Especially since D&D includes space ships and laser guns canonically (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks). So games using the d20 system that are science fiction (or at least science fantasy) could also count.
Such as the Wizards of the Coast published Star Wars game, which was pretty much compatible with 3e D&D, would also be D&D.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But they aren't. 5e orcs are very different than 1e orcs. No more sun weakness. Different alignments. Physically very different. Depictions of orcs are pretty far apart between editions.

Same as virtually every other monster in the game. It's easier to list the ones that haven't changed than try to list the ones that have.

I don't exactly dispute this, but I don't know how that's meant to convince me to change my mind. Yes, that happened. Yes, it's kind of a problem. Yes, it means that stories told about 1e orcs don't work well with 5e orcs. Yes, that's a thing that should be avoided in general going forward, and arguably should've been avoided in that case.

 

[TwoSix]

I don't exactly dispute this, but I don't know how that's meant to convince me to change my mind. Yes, that happens. Yes, it's kind of a problem. Yes, it means that stories told about 1e orcs don't work well with 5e orcs.

I think the point would be that the change doesn't mean you can no longer tell D&D stories. None of those modules going into the TotYP, for example, are now invalidated because orcs act and look a little different.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think the point would be that the change doesn't mean you can no longer tell D&D stories. None of those modules going into the TotYP, for example, are now invalidated because orcs act and look a little different.

Check out the contortions and ret-cons that the Orc pantheon goes through between 2e and 3e, especially on any mention of their domains on Acheron, to see direct evidence of some of the problems this wrought with the D&D stories told with and about orcs.

I don't know a whole lot about many of the classic dungeons in TotYP, or how orcs were presented in them, or if the LE/CE distinction (for instance) was important to them. But in general I don't think that it's useful to reduce "possible D&D orc stories" to "these particular D&D orc stories," and posit that hey, if it was good enough for Tomb of Horrors to ignore everything about orcs except for their propensity to attack adventurers, it should be good enough for everyone who plays D&D to do the same.

Heck, I might even say that if your D&D story with orcs doens't depend on the unique and special traits of D&D orcs to be effective, it's a pretty lousy D&D orc story. If you could change orcs into xvarts or gnolls or ogres and have essentially the same experience, it's not really a story that is about any of those creatures, is it?

 

[TwoSix]

Which just means you could argue almost every fantasy RPG is effectively D&D. Which isn't very useful definition.

Especially since D&D includes space ships and laser guns canonically (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks). So games using the d20 system that are science fiction (or at least science fantasy) could also count.
Such as the Wizards of the Coast published Star Wars game, which was pretty much compatible with 3e D&D, would also be D&D.

No, that's silly. World of Darkness games are obviously not D&D games. Star Wars is obviously not D&D, because it's something else very recognizable as Star Wars. Same thing for Gamma World. But, if I decided to run a Thundarr the Barbarian game using 5e rules or OSR rules, I wouldn't say that's not D&D just because it's post apocalyptic.

The fact that D&D has included some elements which aren't core D&D elements doesn't suddenly make everything D&D. Dark Sun had bug people, but that doesn't suddenly make Starship Troopers D&D!
[MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] had it right in his earlier post. Identifying D&D is fundamentally nebulous, and is going to vary from one observer to the next depending on the parameters they value most. Fortunately, a strict taxonomy of roleplaying games gains us absolutely nothing, so it isn't really worth arguing about except for fun.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[TwoSix]

Heck, I might even say that if your D&D story with orcs doens't depend on the unique and special traits of D&D orcs to be effective, it's a pretty lousy D&D orc story. If you could change orcs into xvarts or gnolls or ogres and have essentially the same experience, it's not really a story that is about any of those creatures, is it?

That's kind of tautological, though, isn't it? If it's a lousy story BECAUSE it doesn't use a specific set of details, then naturally you're going to think those specific details are kind of important! Although i do think a story about LE orcs must be REALLY specific if you can't make it a story about LE hobgoblins.

For me, I don't run the kind of games where those specific details are really important. I just borrow whatever elements are there, and if they're inspiring, I use them, if not, I change them. Fundamentally, I use the setting as a backdrop to MY story, I have no interest (anymore) in using the story as a way to showcase the setting.