D&D 5E Do You Delve?

[TwoSix]

I'm sort of surprised by the idea that so many people don't do dungeon crawls.

Do you mean you don't use the fictional dungeon environment? Or that you never explore a location based on a map with more than about 2 or 3 rooms?

I've had some bigger scenes with about 4-5 rooms, but I didn't have a map or anything, just a picture in my head. That's generally how I run games.

 

[Charlaquin]

Fair enough. I disagree that the design intent was a specific gameplay style, but I’m not sure it really matters.

I don’t know if the design intent was to make a game about delving. But I do think it’s the outcome if you run the game as written (i.e. designed).

 

[Yora]

I believe the original game in 1974 was absolutely about dungeon crawling. And stayed that way at least until the mid 80s.
And then Tracy Hickman had some ideas...

 

[Imaro]

Now, of course, people are free to run and play the game however they like. But, I believe a lot of people run the game differently than how I believe it was designed to be run and played, not because they dislike the way it’s designed, but because they don’t even realize they’re doing so. They learned it a certain way, and it works and they like it, so they continue running it that way, never realizing that they’re actually deviating quite a lot from the rules as written. And I think that’s a shame, because I think a lot of people would really like the game as written, if they actually tried it.

Isn't this part of the design ethos of D&D 5e? Does it actually prescribe a "way" it was designed to be run as opposed to offering options and saying hey take what you want and leave what you don't since rulings trump rules...

 

[Charlaquin]

Isn't this part of the design ethos of D&D 5e? Does it actually prescribe a "way" it was designed to be run as opposed to offering options and saying hey take what you want and leave what you don't since rulings trump rules...

I’m not making a comment on the design ethos of D&D 5e, I’m talking about the design of D&D 5e. Yes, they do offer options and say to take what you want and leave what you don’t since rulings trump rules. What I’m saying is, if you use the options they give you (the ones the designed) and play by the rules, what you end up with is a game about delving.

 

[Imaro]

I’m not making a comment on the design ethos of D&D 5e, I’m talking about the design of D&D 5e. Yes, they do offer options and say to take what you want and leave what you don’t since rulings trump rules. What I’m saying is, if you use the options they give you (the ones the designed) and play by the rules, what you end up with is a game about delving.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm trying to better understand what rules and options you feel were designed into the game that necessarily make it about delving. Not saying you're wrong but I haven't seen you present exactly what you are talking about.

EDIT: To be clear if you were speaking to some of the older editions I'd agree without hesitation but D&D 5e (and arguably 4e) just don't seem like they were necessarily designed to be delving games IMO.

 

[Mannahnin]

Yeah, I think 5E has a bit of a personality/design conflict on this score.

I agree that the 6-8 encounter adventuring day definitely seems like it was designed with delving in mind. But OTOH the DMG still lacks a nice dungeon exploration rules framework like B/X gives us. If it had that too, I'd agree wholeheartedly that 5E is designed primarily for delving, but in practice it seems like it's only partially designed for that.

 

[Yora]

My time with 5th edition definitely felt like they want to keep a lot of the traditional dungeon crawling mechanics from 40 years ago, but at the same time actually be a story focused game. Resulting in rules not really well suited for either.

 

[Charlaquin]

Can you elaborate on this? I'm trying to better understand what rules and options you feel were designed into the game that necessarily make it about delving. Not saying you're wrong but I haven't seen you present exactly what you are talking about.

It’s not that any specific, individual rules make it necessarily about delving. It’s just that, the effect of all of the rules in aggregate, if you actually follow them, produce a game about delving. All the stuff that’s in there that people tend to ignore - the 6 to 8 encounter work day, the travel rules, random encounter tables, encumbrance, rations, etc. If you run the game using all of the rules, the way they were written (i.e. the way the game is designed), the result is a delving game.

Coincidentally, the angry GM just posted an article this very morning about what I’m getting at (the game-as-designed part, not necessarily the delve part.)

Exploring by the Rules

Today’s lesson about how you all break your games and then ask me to fix them. Specifically, it’s about how all the little, fiddly rules that don’t seem to do anything are actuall…

theangrygm.com

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

My own campaigns are big open sandboxes where some Good vs. Evil is happening and the PCs mess around with the world and either willingly or incidentally help (usually) the Good side (but sometimes not). There are some scenes where multiple fights happen in a setting that resembles a dungeon, but also lots of open roleplay and fights that have nothing do to with a dungeon (i.e. open air, lots of space, and just 1 fight between (long) rests).

However, I do play a game as a player that's totally a Dungeon crawler. There is nearly no room for character development as we go from a temple complex to a cave to a castle to wizard tower to the next area with strong walls and multiple rooms. And inside those, it's always multiple meaningless fights and one boss-fight - very predictable. There is little creativity in the fights because we need to save the chi points and spells (it's become very predictable that we get multiple encounters). Using the random treasure tables we also got many magic items that we did not need. Spell scrolls only suited for clerics when our only spellcaster is a wizard - stuff like that.

I never understand why monsters would spread out through multiple rooms and then wait for you to come to them instead of gang up on you in one strategically chosen room, to maximize their chances?

Lots of dungeon delving, I prefer it to all the shenanigans players get into in open settings, and most of all, I hate using cities - like Waterdeep, not Hommlet-sized.

I love the shenanigans. Shenanigans create story. But I never use any adventure books... because my PCs would walk out of the book on page 2.