Do you fold multiple skills into one?

[Destil]

Although I am tempted to do so, I haven't found the "folding" compelling enough for me to expand my house rule document even further.

I am of the opinion that it would be nice if 4e streamlined the skills in such a way however.

Rav

I'd agree, with two cavats.

I disempowered spellcraft quite a bit and folded almost everything other than identify a spell being cast and wizards learning spells into other skills (I hate the half-hearted spellcraft as a skill vs. spells as a class ability solution).

I folded open lock into disable device.

In future campaigns with more streamlined houserules I think ADDING to the number of skills (I liked scry!) and doing skillgroups is the way I'll go....

 

[Greg K]

No. I don't like skill folding (or even Iron Heroes skill set up for that matter). I want more skills and more skill points.

 

[Brian Gibbons]

I think the skill system is underutilized, so I like the idea of skill-folding. There are a large number of skills that hardly anyone takes (other than as a prestige class prereq or as a sacrifice to fluff up a character concept).

Giving more skill points might help, but more likely it would just let people gain more of the always-useful skills like Spot, even if you have to cross-class.

The problem with most skill-folding systems is that they fold together skills that work together. Sure, that might make the most sense, but it also means that, for example, you're either good at all lock-picking skills or not; you're either perceptive with all senses or not; you can either handle all NPC interactions or not.

I prefer a system where one PC is good at bluffing, but another at being diplomatic; one is good at climbing, the other at swimming.

My ideal skill-folding system (which I've never used, just theorized about), would fold together somewhat-connected skills, primarily those relying on different attributes, e.g.:

Spot+Hide
Listen+Move Silently
Disguise+Forgery
Balance+Climb
Tumble+Jump
Gather Information+Decipher Script
Knowledge(geography)+Survival
Knowledge(nature)+Handle Animal
Appraise+Sense Motive
Spellcraft+Use Magical Device

I suppose another way of looking at this is that we need to get rid of about half of the skills--skills that hardly ever get used should just get folded into a more useful skill, or have several marginal utility skills folded together.

(Personally, I expect that we'll see lot fewer skills in 4e, with a good number of 3e skills becoming skill tricks associated with another skill or just outright folded in, the way Intuit Direction disappeared.)

 

[Master of the Game]

Here is what I am using in my new (heavily house-ruled) DnD game:

* Acrobatics (Dex): Movement-based skills that require agility. Combines Balance, and Tumble.
* Athletics (Str): Skills that require brute force and endurance. Combines Climb, Jump, and Swim.
* Concentration (Con): Unchanged.
* Craft (Int): Becomes a Focus Skill.
* Deception (Cha): Combines Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery.
* Handle Animal (Wis): Added Ride to this skill.
* Heal (Wis): Unchanged.
* Intimedate (Cha): May also use Strength.
* Knowledge (Int): Becomes a Focus Skill.
* Mechanics (Int): Allows the building, disabling, or manipulation of complex mechanical devices. Combines Disable Device and Open Lock.
* Perception (Wis): Physical senses. Combines Listen, Spot, and Search.
* Perform (Cha): Becomes a Focus Skill.
* Profession: Becomes a Focus Skill.
* Research (Int): New Skill. Allows a character to search for information or study items/text to determine their worth or purpose. Combines Appraise and Decipher Script.
* Sense Motive (Wis): Unchanged.
* Sleight of Hand (Dex): Added Escape Artist to this skill.
* Social (Cha): Combines Diplomacy and Gather Information.
* Speak Language (Int): Unchanged.
* Spellcraft (Int): Unchanged.
* Stealth (Dex): Physical covert skills. Combines Hide and Move Silently.
* Survival (Wis): Added Use Rope to this skill. Becomes a Focus Skill.
* Use Magic Device (Cha): Unchanged.


Note: The following skills have been removed, renamed, or joined into other skills.

* Appraise: Folded into Research..
* Balance: Folded into Acrobatics.
* Bluff: Folded into Deception.
* Climb: Folded into Athletics.
* Decipher Script: Folded into Research.
* Disable Device: Folded into Mechanics.
* Disguise: Folded into Deception.
* Escape Artist: Folded into Sleight of Hand.
* Forgery: Folded into Deception.
* Hide: Folded into Stealth.
* Jump: Folded into Athletics.
* Listen: Folded into Perception.
* Move Silently: Folded into Stealth.
* Open Lock: Folded into Mechanics.
* Ride: Folded into Handle Animal.
* Search: Folded into Perception.
* Spot: Folded into Perception.
* Swim: Folded into Athletics.
* Tumble: Folded into Acrobatics.
* Use Rope: Folded into Survival.


For simplicity's sake, if a class had any skill that has been folded into another skill on its class skill list, then it is assumed to ave access to the updated skill.

 

[Mechnomancer]

i tried it, but found it to be a real pain later down the road. Spells, feats, magic items, class abilities, prestige class reqirements etc. problems kept cropping up. So now i just give out more skill points / level.

 

[arscott]

No. I like skills to much.

See, combining skills is just a way of giving out extra skill points for free. And it's a basic law of economics that when you give away something for free, it becomes less valuable.

When skill points are a precious commodity, skill-based challenges can be exciting. Characters must decide how to approach problems, based on their strengths and weaknesses, and the possibility of failure is always on the table.

When skill points are cheap, skill-based challenges become boring. There's no strategy involved, because one or more characters have max ranks in all of the applicable skills. The possibility of failure is so small that skill checks becomes tedious.

look at it this way: why are there 11 core classes, when there are only 4-6 players at the table? Would the game be more interesting if the party tank had the abilities of a fighter, a barbarian, a paladin, and a monk? Then why would the game be better if the players had max ranks in almost all of the skills?

 

[Li Shenron]

Like, for instance, the more famous Spot + Listen and Move Silently + Hide skills. I know quite a few people fold them together into one single skill.

No we don't. There's plenty enough skill points for everyone. If in a certain game we felt like there weren't enough, I would probably suggest to just grant a couple of extra skill points per level to everyone.

 

[Sound of Azure]

While I can see some benefit in doing so, no skill oragami for me.

I give out additional skill points instead, as well as a small pool of "background points" usable for background/regional skills.

 

[Drowbane]

Like, for instance, the more famous Spot + Listen and Move Silently + Hide skills. I know quite a few people fold them together into one single skill.

But how about other skills? Do you all fold, for instance, Open Lock + Disable Device + Sleight of Hand into one skill, Use Magic Device + Use Psionic Device, Spellcraft + Psicraft + Martial Lore, Bluff + Diplomacy + Intimidate, Ride + Handle Animal, Decipher Script + Forgery, and so on?

My group does this.

Athletics (climb, swim, jump)
Acrobatics (balance, tumble)
Perception (listen, spot)
Stealth or Sneak (move silently, hide)

there are more, but I must've failed my Int Check...

We also eliminated class skills.

How are the results?

Characters are more likely to be able to do things the Player wants them to be good at.

All in all, a good change.

 

[RFisher]

You could say that I've folded skills, feats, & races into classes. (^_^) In my "grand unified theory of role-playing games", classes are just really broad skills.

That said, the D&D skill list is plenty short enough for me. (It's the feats, even in core-only) that there are too many of.) If I were to run 3e again (or--more likely--something that would be better called a d20 variant), I might do some skill consolidation, but that'd be one of my last concerns.