D&D 3E/3.5 Do you get the impression more people have left 3.5 for 4th?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I just find it interesting because a few years ago, people were saying that by continuing to put out new products for it, Pathfinder would keep 3E alive. In practice, I think that PF is on the upswing...at the expense of 3E. I can't help but wonder if 3E would have survived better if there had been no PF. It's true, people like to play a supported game. But it's also true that 3E and 4E are very different. For reference...well, read this site. If 4E were the only D&D getting new stuff, I'm sure 3E would have suffered a bit, but I also doubt there'd be many more people jumping ship to 4E than there are now. PF, releasing new products AND being very similar to 3E naturally will have the greater effect. In retrospect, the whole thing's just really ironic, I guess.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

In practice, I think that PF is on the upswing...at the expense of 3E.

I agree with this more and more.

 

[CuRoi]

I just find it interesting because a few years ago, people were saying that by continuing to put out new products for it, Pathfinder would keep 3E alive. In practice, I think that PF is on the upswing...at the expense of 3E. I can't help but wonder if 3E would have survived better if there had been no PF. It's true, people like to play a supported game. But it's also true that 3E and 4E are very different. For reference...well, read this site. If 4E were the only D&D getting new stuff, I'm sure 3E would have suffered a bit, but I also doubt there'd be many more people jumping ship to 4E than there are now. PF, releasing new products AND being very similar to 3E naturally will have the greater effect. In retrospect, the whole thing's just really ironic, I guess.

I haven't played Pathfinder but I have read through the core PDF. It does look like 3.5. I've heard people say it's mainly an extensive collection of house rules to which I very nearly agree, but again I have limited table time with it. I don't see myself playing it though because it is so similar and many of the issues it seeks to address I have already compensated for in my 3.5 campaigns.

3e /3.5e IMO was at the end of it's lifecycle in many ways IMO. The "supplement bloat" was pretty well at a peak making it hard to add anything else to the game; the perennial problem areas which saw who knows how many revisions (think Polymorph, etc.) and house rules, were never really able to be addressed on a unified scale. I'm also not sure what WotC could have done to expand the product line and bring in more players. Yeah, I think 3.5 could survive for a bit on veteran players alone, but I don't think it could have remained a vibrant, growing market.

What they tried to do with 4e was the "right thing" IMO, just the results were not great. I'm all for some of the simplicity attempted by 4e, but not happy about the odd increase of what I see as the primacy of board game mechanics over story (thats probably another thread).

I think some (many?) 3.5 players were maybe secretly looking for and prime for some sort of "reset" but they were not happy with the 4.0 results. 4.0 seemed more of an in-house thing whereas Pathfinder seemed to keep its design more open to the community. So IMO it is no surprise that Pathfinder would suceed at the expense of 3.5. It's sort of what a large number of players were maybe secretly hoping for and I really think 3.5's days were numbered in many ways.

 

[shadzar]

People generally like to play a supported game

I don't think this fits with the rest you said, but agree with all the rest. I just think it is more people are able to play a supported game for the parts or your post that come after this.

I would hope people like to play a game they like to play, rather than depend on its level of new product availability.

If either existed offline without the companies servers I would like to play NWN and EverQuest as I spent so much money on them, but have no interest in whether they are supported or not which is why I had so much fun playing and laughing at King's Quest last week on my dinosaur 486 machine.

Luckily I have games close enough to NWN, but alas Everquest just cannot be played without being connected to their server.

 

[Janaxstrus]

No one I know moved to 4e.

A few tried PF, but 3.5 is stillt he main game in town.

 

[lordxaviar]

not for long if they do..

 

[TerraDave]

I expect that this would get a different response in general. But still, yes, a lot of people did not switch over....

You could try to put D&D players into various groups:

--Those that never went to 3E. Yes, they exist. I know some. Some just didn't play for various reasons in the 3E era. Some (see rpg.net) actually didn’t like it. Some have went to 4E, and again I know some (and again see rpg.net). Some staid with a pre 3E version of the game.

--Those that went to 3E. Now, my previous set notwithstanding, a bunch of people did play 3E. It was the game of its time and for a while seemed to be the one true game to rule them all. These in turn can be broken down into:

-----Those that tired of 3E earlier and went on to C&C, retroclones, other d20 games, savage worlds…and in some cases 4E later.

-----Those that tired of 3E later but kinda kept playing it. This seems to have been 4Es core audience (me included), and certainly who WotC marketed to.

-----Those that liked 3E but liked 4E better and switched over. I know they exist, but not sure in what numbers.

-----Those that liked 3E, but wanted something new still, and went to PF or maybe some other games (SAGA, fantasy craft).

-----Those that just liked 3E and kept playing it.

--And of course the golden gleam in WotC’s eye: players new to D&D. To the extent to which there has been entry into the hobby, many have probably picked up 4E, but I bet some are playing PF or retro clones.

So 4E can include those that skipped 3E, those that had already left, newcomers, and some that switched over. I doubt a majority of active 3E groups have made the switch.
And the above groups raises the question of why WotC took such an aggressive stance on 4E? My guess: they felt they had done all they could with 3E, and needed to do something big to get people to leave there extremely well supported 3E games behind.

 

[Tovec]

We have a rather large group in my area that play DnD (and other RPGs). I like many of our group fought 4e hard.
In our group (again large with about 50 or so people in various gaming groups) we have almost all stayed with 3.5 or various 3ish forms such as SW d20, etc.
In MY games we upgraded to Pathfinder and I love the change.
Summing up, many in of our group tried 4e. None have stayed with it, that I know of.

 

[marv]

I have almost a catch phrase, "The more I learn about Pathfinder, the less I like it." Referring to all the hidden little changes from 3E that aren't immediately obvious sometimes.

I will bite. What are these hidden little changes that bug you in PF? In my experience XP's changes to 3.5 have mostly improved the game. I still have some mixed feelings, for example changing "undead turning" into "Channel Energy" as turning undead has mainly remained the same mechanic since day 1 of the game. However, I must admit Channel Energy is a more consistent mechanic to the rest of the game. One of the things I really appriciate about 3rd Edition is that WoTC started with a design document (a simple two page document). It is clear to me that Channel Energy fulfills the Streamlining requirment.

The Paizo game designers seem to know what they are doing. And more importantly, they seem to care about the game in a way I know longer see at WoTC. My bottom line is that I will be playing DnD for the rest of my life. Any version or game company that keeps the game alive to help me meet that goal is gold for me. I hope Hasbro either figures out where the pasion went and reboots DnD in my lifetime.

 

[DumbPaladin]

It's funny ... just today I said to my DM, "The more I learn about Pathfinder, the more I like it."

The more I learned about the current D&D version ... well, my opinion didn't so much as change as I was convinced I had made the right decision for me and the style of play I wish to have. The recent decisions that are alienating even 4E players/fans is completely bizarre to me ...

There did seem to be a large-scale refusal by a good chunk of 3.x fans to switch.