Do you hate wish-lists too?

[SimonTVesper]

I hate wishlists. I also hate treasure parcels. In general, I dislike the emphasis on magic items created by 3rd edition. I really dislike how 4th has continued the tradition, despite declarations to the contrary.

So instead I don't give magic items as a mandatory reward. I use something similar to the Classic Fantasy approach (see link below). The characters gain the benefits of magic items as they level (within limits based on level and their heroic concept), but they never actually possess an item unles I give it to them; and then, it's a bonus that doesn't count against their limit.

Classic Fantasy – Character Concepts and 4e Magic items | STUFFER SHACK

 

[airwalkrr]

Well, on the one hand, I feel wish-lists are incredibly meta and take away from the immersion of an RPG. On the other hand, some groups care diddly squat about immersion and role-playing and just want to knock some goblin heads. I prefer the former, but if I end up DMing a group that prefers the latter, I allow them to submit wishlists since it will help all of us have a good time. That doesn't necessarily mean I will give them what is on their wish lists. If I don't think it is appropriate, it doesn't find its way into the treasure. Still, I think player's deserve some input on what kind of treasure they'd like to see.

Think about it this way. As a DM, you come up with lots of ideas that you want to see put into play. You think about plots and places, nefarious NPCs and intriguing stories, and look for ways to integrate them into your game because you want to see how they play out. These plots, these places, these NPCs, they are your tools, your means of getting what you want out of the game. Well, players have a much more limited pool to draw from. At worst, they are limited to picking what race, class, and alignment to play. That might be enough for some players, but not most. Every player has looked fondly into the rule books at that one item that fascinated him and he imagined his character using that item. Maybe it was a holy avenger and he thought about how cool it would be to swing that bad baby around if he were a paladin. Players have a stake in the treasure too. It affects how much enjoyment they get out of the game. So if the player can the DM can find some common ground within a wishlist, I say why not? I don't encourage the type of wishlist where a player dictates each and every item his character is to receive, but one where the player says "This is a list of items I'd like to try out," and the DM says "Okay, these two look good so I'll include them as treasure."

 

[S'mon]

So if the player can the DM can find some common ground within a wishlist, I say why not? I don't encourage the type of wishlist where a player dictates each and every item his character is to receive, but one where the player says "This is a list of items I'd like to try out," and the DM says "Okay, these two look good so I'll include them as treasure."

Why not have NPCs forge the desired magic sword for the PC as a reward? That's a nice simple solution that requires zero metagaming. Or let the PCs find enough treasure they can use it to commission the items they want.

I don't understand why everything has to be "item drops".

 

[Nytmare]

Why not have NPCs forge the desired magic sword for the PC as a reward? That's a nice simple solution that requires zero metagaming. Or let the PCs find enough treasure they can use it to commission the items they want.

I don't understand why everything has to be "item drops".

There's no reason why wish list items, or treasure parcels have to be "item drops".

They are things that the player would like to see over the course of the game, not things that the player wants to fall out of goblins' pockets when they die. They can be rewards, they can be purchases, they can be thrown by a watery tart; it doesn't matter.

Heck, in addition to item wish lists, my players submit what basically boil down to adventure wish lists as well.

"I want to get to Old Town so I can confront my brother and force him to turn himself over to the authorities."

"I need to return Malinor's remains to Windstorm Village so that he can be interred in his family crypt."

"The Sword of the Champion was lost somewhere in Doomfell Gorge. I want to swear an oath to the King that I will find it for him."
​

These are only metagame speed bumps if you're forcing them to be speed bumps.

 

[Will Doyle]

I find wish-lists enable players to create the heroes they want to play. Although it may impact immersion if handled lazily, a good DM should be able to work in a compelling reason why X item ends up in X lair.

This said, your idea takes a lot of that pressure off, and maintains immersion. I like it a lot!

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

No, I don't hate wish lists for the same reasons Nytmare doesn't. Like alignments, wish lists are guidelines; not straightjackets.

 

[the Jester]

I find wish-lists enable players to create the heroes they want to play. Although it may impact immersion if handled lazily, a good DM should be able to work in a compelling reason why X item ends up in X lair.

That's fine until the pcs decide what X items are.

For instance, why wouldn't a villainous cleric have a magic holy symbol, even if there aren't any divine pcs in the party? This is the other thing about wish lists- it discourages the dm from using logic for what the monsters would have and instead encourages the dm to use metagame logic for what the players would like.

That said, it's clear that some of the people in this thread are referring to a wish list as, strictly, a list of items the player would like, without any pressure on the dm. IME that's not the typical way they are used.

 

[airwalkrr]

Why not have NPCs forge the desired magic sword for the PC as a reward? That's a nice simple solution that requires zero metagaming. Or let the PCs find enough treasure they can use it to commission the items they want.

I don't understand why everything has to be "item drops".

How is your solution any less meta? Player requests X. DM uses mechanic Y to give player X. Y is a variable with many possibilities.

And I didn't say item drops. Treasure can be given to PCs in many ways, as has already been pointed out by others so I won't regurgitate them.

Furthermore, players who try to bully DMs into giving them the exact items they want will get what is coming to them. Want a vorpal sword? Sure. The next sword you find is a vorpal sword. By the way, that curse attached to the sword that forces you to attack any armed individual within 10' doesn't wash off.

 

[S'mon]

How is your solution any less meta? Player requests X. DM uses mechanic Y to give player X. Y is a variable with many possibilities.

PC requests item from NPC. PC gets item = Not Meta.

Player requests item from DM. PC gets item = Meta.

 

[airwalkrr]

And there are two different ways of pronouncing tomato. It's still the player requesting an item from the DM. And neither requires ANY in-character dialogue. It's all meta. If you prefer to think of it this way, the player simply announces in-character "Gee, I sure wish my character had a frost bow right now." Now it isn't meta anymore by your definition. Letting a player create a wishlist and submit it to the DM is just a streamlined way to get the in-character wishing out of the way so everyone can get down to the real reason they are there, bashing in goblin heads.

So unless we are using a different idea of a wishlist, your point is moot.