No, but I've already explained it as clearly as I can, so I guess that's that.
Do you hate wish-lists too?
- Thread starter Kzach
- Start date
No, but I've already explained it as clearly as I can, so I guess that's that.
airwalkrr
Adventurer
I guess when it comes down to it, I don't hate wishlists because I don't hate anything that helps facilitate gameplay. I think wishlists do that because they help the players get what they want without forcing the DM to guess at what items will be fun for his players to have. As far as the sense of player entitlement goes, players are entitled to have a good time. It's a game and that's what games are for. If a wishlist helps them have a good time I am all for it. And at the end of the day it is still a "wish" list, not a "demands" list. The DM still controls what items enter his game. I've known few DMs who aren't interested in out-of-character feedback on their games from their players and a wishlist is just another form of feedback. Those few DMs who truly don't care what their players think generally don't have players for very long.
And players who truly don't care whether or not their DM enjoys running their games don't have a DM for very long.
All my system does is make it fun for everyone, including the DM.
i've been in a game that used them and i wasn't a fan, it was cool getting the exact items i wanted but it felt very gamey to me. if other people can have fun with it, then that's great but i like at least an illusion of randomness in treasure.
if i really wanted a specific item i'd rather find it in character, whether that means commissioning it or asking around for where to find it.
if i really wanted a specific item i'd rather find it in character, whether that means commissioning it or asking around for where to find it.
d2OKC
Explorer
I use a wishlist, but I don't let them decide exactly what they get.
What I've done (and I'll admit, I haven't read the entire thread, so please to forgive me if this has already been mentioned) is create a deck of cards with items they want. They are currently 18th level, so the deck consists of items from level 17-20. Each player chose two items at each level and then I added in two items for each level (mostly wondrous items, or things that are a little more niche than magic weapons, implements, etc.). Whenever they complete an encounter that would award them treasure, I just have them draw a card from the deck.
Sometimes they get an item that is useful (though, they have no control over which one it is) and sometimes they get one that isn't so obviously useful, but they still occasionally get items they enjoy. They don't feel like I'm cheating them out of items (because they are the ones drawing the cards, not me), and I don't feel like they're abusing the wishlist idea, because they aren't in complete control over which items they get either.
When they create their wishlists, they can't make them out of perfect "sets" of items, because they never know which ones they will or won't get. They just find items that sound cool to them.
-Edit for typo-
What I've done (and I'll admit, I haven't read the entire thread, so please to forgive me if this has already been mentioned) is create a deck of cards with items they want. They are currently 18th level, so the deck consists of items from level 17-20. Each player chose two items at each level and then I added in two items for each level (mostly wondrous items, or things that are a little more niche than magic weapons, implements, etc.). Whenever they complete an encounter that would award them treasure, I just have them draw a card from the deck.
Sometimes they get an item that is useful (though, they have no control over which one it is) and sometimes they get one that isn't so obviously useful, but they still occasionally get items they enjoy. They don't feel like I'm cheating them out of items (because they are the ones drawing the cards, not me), and I don't feel like they're abusing the wishlist idea, because they aren't in complete control over which items they get either.
When they create their wishlists, they can't make them out of perfect "sets" of items, because they never know which ones they will or won't get. They just find items that sound cool to them.
-Edit for typo-
the Jester
Legend
My 30+ years of dming experience puts the lie to this statement. I have never ever ever EVER used a wishlist of any sort, yet I have also never ever had players leave my game over it, and I've always had a group with a waiting list of people to get into it (barring now, when I live in the middle of nowhere and just don't know many people in the area who aren't already in my group).
If a dm runs a good game, it's a good game whether or not the players get pandered to.
Major Moab
First Post
OK, so, after reading through the thread, I am unsure as to what "wish-list" refers to. But I have a pair of definitions I will answer to:
Wish-lists are a collection of items the players want or demand: I see no problem with this PROVIDED the characters are willing to play it into the game. Hence, the player says, "I want a Chainsaw of Bloody Dismemberment." The player is then responsible for trying to use downtime to research the last known place for the item, convincing the party that it is a worthwhile goal for the entire group and making arrangements for acquisition. I think this is fine, and it shows proactive characters/players. S/He can't be upset when the next dungeon they wander into doesn't have one. That is, simply put, a whiny butt player, and I don't really have time to play with them.
Simply put, it is not the responsibility of the DM to cater to the whims of the player's, it is the responsibility of the player to make a story in conjunction with the DM.
Second definition: Wish-List is a compilation of events the player would like to see his character involved in. This is almost completely opposite of the first. I believe a DM SHOULD try to create these events, as no one wants to read a book that has nothing interesting in it for them. Example: "I want opportunities to show off my character's agility and acrobatic skill." The DM should provide those opportunities. If I don't bother to take them, the DM should not feel responsible for making them appear as often. If I choose not to tight rope walk across the chasm, the DM doesn't need to fulfill it in the future. I guess simply put, The DM should attempt to make the game interesting by acknowledging this wishlist, but shouldn't be bound to it.
Thanks for your time.
Wish-lists are a collection of items the players want or demand: I see no problem with this PROVIDED the characters are willing to play it into the game. Hence, the player says, "I want a Chainsaw of Bloody Dismemberment." The player is then responsible for trying to use downtime to research the last known place for the item, convincing the party that it is a worthwhile goal for the entire group and making arrangements for acquisition. I think this is fine, and it shows proactive characters/players. S/He can't be upset when the next dungeon they wander into doesn't have one. That is, simply put, a whiny butt player, and I don't really have time to play with them.
Simply put, it is not the responsibility of the DM to cater to the whims of the player's, it is the responsibility of the player to make a story in conjunction with the DM.
Second definition: Wish-List is a compilation of events the player would like to see his character involved in. This is almost completely opposite of the first. I believe a DM SHOULD try to create these events, as no one wants to read a book that has nothing interesting in it for them. Example: "I want opportunities to show off my character's agility and acrobatic skill." The DM should provide those opportunities. If I don't bother to take them, the DM should not feel responsible for making them appear as often. If I choose not to tight rope walk across the chasm, the DM doesn't need to fulfill it in the future. I guess simply put, The DM should attempt to make the game interesting by acknowledging this wishlist, but shouldn't be bound to it.
Thanks for your time.
airwalkrr
Adventurer
I think you are reading far too much into what I said. I never said you HAD to use wishlists to run a good game. I simply think they can be a useful tool for the DM to get an idea of what players want out of the campaign. Any good DM seeks some sort of feedback from his players.
Crazy Jerome
First Post
Wishlists, in the somewhat hamhanded yet ambiguous way they are presented, are not my favorite thing. I'm not a purist about it, but it does smack a little bit over the line into player entitlement for me. It is much like the DMG excessive emphasis on finding a way to say yes to every request: Not bad advice for a person who tends too far to the other extreme, but pretty lousy advice for a fresh-faced new DM with no preconceived notions.
It reminds me too much of all the high school English teachers that insisted no sentence be ended with a preposition, because they couldn't be bothered to explain the exceptions and/or had this misplaced desire to overemphasize a single school of thought on grammar. Again, not the worst thing in the world, but too dogmatic for insufficient reasons to gather much of my support.
On the other hand, I've been asking the players what they wanted almost from the first time I started running games. I merely don't expect, and never get, a complete list. Rather, they have always known that this was a chance to list a handful of things that they really want to get--in addition to whatever else they scrounge and make good use of.
One of my original players in high school loved playing halflings (and then halfling thieves in AD&D). Everyone at the table knew that he really wanted a ring of invisibility and a bag of holding. First one of each the party found, he got. To get that, he would happily take whatever else came his way. And if got the last magic weapon, a measly +1 dagger, so be it. There was no schedule. It might happen soon, or later--or not at all, if the character died first. In other words, no entitlement mentality whatsoever--merely a player communicating to the DM what he would like to see at some point.
I doubt many DMs would have had any issue with his behavior, including most of the ones in this topic that don't like wishlists. Yet, "wishlist" is a perfect name for recording this kind of thing. The thing I dislike about the 4E wishlist the most is that it has appropriated a good name for a substandard procedure. Reasonable people can, of course, ignore the tenor of the 4E wishlist explanation, and go with the good in it.
It reminds me too much of all the high school English teachers that insisted no sentence be ended with a preposition, because they couldn't be bothered to explain the exceptions and/or had this misplaced desire to overemphasize a single school of thought on grammar. Again, not the worst thing in the world, but too dogmatic for insufficient reasons to gather much of my support.
On the other hand, I've been asking the players what they wanted almost from the first time I started running games. I merely don't expect, and never get, a complete list. Rather, they have always known that this was a chance to list a handful of things that they really want to get--in addition to whatever else they scrounge and make good use of.
One of my original players in high school loved playing halflings (and then halfling thieves in AD&D). Everyone at the table knew that he really wanted a ring of invisibility and a bag of holding. First one of each the party found, he got. To get that, he would happily take whatever else came his way. And if got the last magic weapon, a measly +1 dagger, so be it. There was no schedule. It might happen soon, or later--or not at all, if the character died first. In other words, no entitlement mentality whatsoever--merely a player communicating to the DM what he would like to see at some point.
I doubt many DMs would have had any issue with his behavior, including most of the ones in this topic that don't like wishlists. Yet, "wishlist" is a perfect name for recording this kind of thing. The thing I dislike about the 4E wishlist the most is that it has appropriated a good name for a substandard procedure. Reasonable people can, of course, ignore the tenor of the 4E wishlist explanation, and go with the good in it.
