Do you like being saved? Or the Dues ex machina in action

[Salad Shooter]

It depends on the nature of the "oh crap" encounter. Was there a good way for the PCs to get themselves out of trouble? I don't think a no-win situation is any fun (unless it's a plot element). I do agree that the GM probably should have done something to even up the odds, rather than just terminate the encounter.

That said, if it was a rare oops, whatever. Feces, as they say, happens.

 

[kitsune9]

As a GM, I pull my punches in that the players will be able to hit back easier or that the monsters will have less hp. I won't put in deus ex machina no matter what.

As a player, yes, I would hate it too, even if it's the GM's fault for throwing a tough encounter at us. Let's roll up some new characters and pick up where the former foolhardy heroes left off.

 

[gamerprinter]

being captured and forced to use your wits to escape would have made an interesting adventure.

The goal is to avoid TPK, weakening an encounter doesn't mean the PCs get an automatic win. Some still might die, it's in the PCs hands now.

 

[Doug McCrae]

What do you think? What's your preference? Do you like being saved?

I think that type of thing needs to be in the rules, clearly stated.

It's completely understandable that players get p---ed off by this, for two reasons. Firstly, if combat is supposed to be a challenge that the players can win or lose, achieving rewards for winning and being penalised for failure, this kind of GM-fiat seems to be removing the penalties, so winning is meaningless. Otoh, there may still be penalties for failure, just not PC death (loss of stuff or xp, story penalties, etc). Again, whether and how the players are being challenged, and what the rewards and penalties may be, needs to be clearly stated. Most traditional rpgs don't do this, they just fudge the issue.

Secondly it makes it look like the game is a railroad, ie it has an outcome predetermined by the GM. The players will wonder, if the GM overrules the dice now, is there anything he won't overrule to get his desired result? And if that's the case, what's the point in the players being there, do they have any power over the game at all?

As a player in a traditional rpg, I have hated it when this happened. But I'd be totally cool with it, I think, if it had been established, say that this was a fiction sim game, or, even better, a 'bad fiction' sim game. In bad fiction the hero is forever being saved by deus ex machinae, plot elements that haven't been foreshadowed. There can then be rules for how and when the hero is saved. Combat could even be taken off the table as a challenge for the players at all. It may still exist, but serve different functions. This would be getting far away from trad rpging however, which at least goes thru the motions, still.

 

[Gundark]

Give your GM, or yourself (if you're the GM) a break. Suggest amiably ways that he might have done that encounter differently so as not break the suspension of the scene, so they might learn to do a better job, next time it happens. And it probably will happen again.

Oh totally! I have run some games and have been there before too. I have mad mistakes that where total "Whoops! he he sorry guys". The point of the thread was not to hash out my DM's mistake (cause we've all done it), but to discuss the concept of death and do you save the PCs when hits the fan.

 

[S'mon]

I hate being saved by deus ex machina. Being saved as an actual emergent property of in-game events may be ok, but should normally be foreseeable - "Hold on until the cavalry arrive!"

Many of my players have likewise been seriously annoyed by fudger GMs who won't let their PCs die, so I often get praise when I do kill 'em off. Not everyone likes my style but most seem to. Killing the big demon is a real achievement when there was a real chance of TPK.

 

[S'mon]

I don't know any perfect GMs. I myself have underestimated the power of a given encounter in more than one occassion, such that in mid fight I changed something in the encounter to lessen it's difficulty. Though I try to obfuscate it, so the players are unaware of the change in status has even happened. After game, I'll admit to what happened, and ask if any of the players noticed.

IME the only thing worse than fudging and trying to conceal it, is fudging and then actually telling the players you fudged.

A better approach is a Fate Point type mechanic that puts control in the hands of the PCs.

 

[Elf Witch]

I absolutely want to be saved if my PC is dying because the DM screwed up the encounter.

I hate TPKs and I hate my character dying because there was no way for my character to actually effect the encounter.

 

[Niccodaemus]

I absolutely want to be saved if my PC is dying because the DM screwed up the encounter.

I hate TPKs and I hate my character dying because there was no way for my character to actually effect the encounter.

In all my years of gaming, I can't say I ever DMed or played in a TPK. There was always at least one person who was smart enough to run when the battle was lost. I hadn't even heard of a TPK until very recently.

I agree... if there is no way for players to escape, and they can not prevail, something has been very poorly designed.

Now... running into wandering monsters as you are fleeing is another thing.

 

[Elf Witch]

In all my years of gaming, I can't say I ever DMed or played in a TPK. There was always at least one person who was smart enough to run when the battle was lost. I hadn't even heard of a TPK until very recently.

I agree... if there is no way for players to escape, and they can not prevail, something has been very poorly designed.

Now... running into wandering monsters as you are fleeing is another thing.

I have have suffered through two TPKs one was the DMs fault he admitted it afterwards and apologized for it and never ran a game without a screen again.

The other time it was because one of the players was convinced that the DM would never throw anything against us we could not handle. We were a party of four at third level back in 2E we encountered a bunch of gas spores that exploded killing two members outright and then several beholders. My character made every save but the last one and I was disintegrated. We had no where to run.

It turned out that the DM was in a bad mood and wanted to kill two of the character because he thought they had way overpowered their characters using the old Skills and Powers book. He didn't mane to kill us all but in the end he did.

Both those TPKs left a bad taste in my mouth and to this day I hate the idea of them.