D&D 5E Do you like the simplicity of 5E monsters?

[steeldragons]

I am amazed people prefer this

[sblock]Adult Red Dragon: CR 15; Huge dragon (fire); HD 22d12+110, hp 253; Init +4; Spd 40ft., fly 150 ft. (poor); AC 29, touch 8, flat-footed 29; Base Atk+22; Grp +41; Atk +31 melee (2d8+11, bite); Full Atk +31 melee (2d8+11, bite), +26 melee (2d6+5, 2 claws), +26 melee (1d8+5, 2 wings), +26 melee (2d6+16, tail slap); Space/Reach15 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with bite); SA breath weapon, crush, frightful presence, snatch, spell-like abilities, spells; SQ blindsense 60 ft., damage reduction 5/magic, darkvision 120 ft., immunity to fire, magic sleep effects, and paralysis, low-light vision, spell resistance 21, vulnerability to cold; AL CE; SV Fort +18, Ref +15, Will +17; Str 33, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 16.
Skills and Feats: Appraise +25, Bluff +19, Concentration +24, Diplomacy +20, Gather Information +14, Hide –8, Jump +37, Knowledge (arcana) +18, Knowledge (local) +18, Listen +26, Search +25, Sense Motive +10, Spellcraft +15, Spot +28; Cleave, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Snatch, Wingover.
Breath Weapon (Su): 50-ft. cone, 12d10 fire, Reflex DC 25 half.
Crush (Ex): Area 15 ft. by 15 ft.; Small or smaller opponents take 2d8+15 points of bludgeoning damage, and must succeed on a DC 25 Reflex save or be pinned.
Frightful Presence (Ex): 180-ft. radius, HD 21 or fewer, Will DC 24 negates.
Snatch (Ex): Against Small or smaller creatures, bite for 2d8+11/round or claw for 2d6+5/round.
Spell-Like Abilities: 6/day—locate object. Caster level 7th.
Spells: As 7th-level sorcerer.
Sorcerer Spells Known(6/7/7/5; save DC 13 + spell level): 0—arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand, read magic, resistance; 1st—alarm, divine favor, magic missile, protection from good, shield; 2nd—cat’s grace, darkness, shatter; 3rd—dispel magic, protection from energy.[/sblock]to this

[Sblock]View attachment 63680[/Sblock]

Noooot everyone does.

 

[Nebulous]

I would like to see the Basic, 1e, 2e, 3e, 4e and 5e adult red dragon stat blocks side by side. I don't like that the dragon doesn't have any spell like abilities. But that's a simple thing to add. I suppose it's better to have it simple to start with rather than too complex and then trying to scale it back later.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Noooot everyone does.

I sure as heck don't. But I'm not going to begrudge someone who does. If they're having fun, more power to them.

 

[CM]

I would like to see the Basic, 1e, 2e, 3e, 4e and 5e adult red dragon stat blocks side by side. I don't like that the dragon doesn't have any spell like abilities. But that's a simple thing to add. I suppose it's better to have it simple to start with rather than too complex and then trying to scale it back later.

I picked the blue because 4e's adult red hasn't been updated for post-Monster Vault math, unfortunately. If I had looked harder I would've picked this elder red, from the Monster Vault. Its 4e level of 22 is pretty close to equivalent for 5e's CR 17 adult red.

In this case the 5e adult red with its legendary actions might beat out the 4e elder red in terms of tactical options. Shows that not all 4e creatures have the same creative abilities.

[sblock]

Elder Red Dragon
Huge natural magical beast (dragon)

Level 22 Solo Soldier
XP 20750
HP 832; Bloodied 416 Initiative +18
AC 38, Fortitude 36, Reflex 33, Will 32 Perception+19
Speed 8, fly 10 Darkvision
Resist 20 fire
Saving Throws +5; Action Points 2
Traits

• Action Recovery: Whenever the dragon ends its turn, any dazing, stunning, or dominating effect on it ends.
• Instinctive Assault: On an initiative of 10 + its initiative check, the dragon can use a free action to use bite or claw. If the dragon cannot use a free action to make this attack due to a dominating or stunning effect, then that effect ends instead of the dragon making the attack.

Standard Actions

• Bite (fire) - At-Will: Attack: Melee 3 (one creature); +27 vs. AC; Hit: 2d10 + 6 damage. The target is grabbed and takes ongoing 15 fire damage, or ongoing 25 fire damage if the dragon is bloodied, until the grab ends (escape DC 30).
• Claw At-Will: Attack: Melee 3 (one or two creatures); +27 vs. AC. If the dragon targets only one creature, it can make this attack twice against that creature; Hit: 3d10 + 14 damage, and the dragon grabs the target (escape DC 27) if it has fewer than two creatures grabbed.
• Immolate Foe (fire) - Recharge 5-6 : Attack: Ranged 20 (one creature); +25 vs. Reflex; Hit: 4d10 + 7 fire damage, and ongoing 20 fire damage (save ends); Miss: Half damage, and ongoing 10 fire damage (save ends).
• Breath Weapon (fire) - Recharge 5-6: Attack: Close blast 5 (creatures in the blast); +25 vs. Reflex; Hit: 4d12 + 17 fire damage; Miss: Half damage.

Triggered Actions

• Tail Strike - At-Will: Trigger: An enemy leaves a square within 3 squares of the dragon; Attack (Immediate Reaction): Melee 4 (the triggering enemy); +25 vs. Reflex; Hit: 2d8 + 4 damage, and the target falls prone.
• Bloodied Breath - Encounter: Trigger: The dragon is first bloodied; Effect (Free Action): Breath weapon recharges, and the dragon uses it.

Skills Bluff +18, Insight +19
Str 26 (+19) Dex 21 (+16) Wis 17 (+14)
Con 24 (+18) Int 14 (+13) Cha 15 (+13)
Alignment evil Languages Common, Draconic

[/sblock]

 

[Remathilis]

I would like to see the Basic, 1e, 2e, 3e, 4e and 5e adult red dragon stat blocks side by side. I don't like that the dragon doesn't have any spell like abilities. But that's a simple thing to add. I suppose it's better to have it simple to start with rather than too complex and then trying to scale it back later.

Well, I won't reprint the monster's manual, but here is the "module stat blocks" for a few of them

2nd edition
Dragon, Red, adult (Int. 15-16 Exceptionally intelligent; AL CE; AC -5; MV 9, Fl 30(C); HD 17; hp 64; THAC0 5; #AT 3; Dmg 1-10/1-10/3-30 (+6 to dmg); SA Breath weapon 1/3 rnds (12d10+6), 2 lvl 1 & 1 lvl 2 wizard spells; SD Fear 20 yd radius (+2 save), MR 35%; SZ G; ML Fanatic (17-18); XP 15,000)

BECMI
Red Dragon: AC -5; hp 102, MV 150’ (50’), flying 360’ (120’); #AT 3 or breath weapon; THAC0 1; DMG 1-12 + 2/1-12 + 2 (claws, or claw and kick, or claw and tail slash) and 4-32 + 8 (bite) or damage equal to dragon’s current hp (breath weapon 3 times per day); ML 10, AL Chaotic; XP 9,575
[Note: This dragon did not roll magic-use]

1st editon
Dragons, Red: AL CE, MV 9"/24" (MC:E), 11 (hp 66), AC -1, #AT 3, D 1-8/1-8/3-30, SA breath fire cone 90' x 40', spells, SDs pells, SZ L(48'), IN Exceptional; IL 60%, TT H, S,T; XP 8006
[can speak and use the following spells once per day: enlarge, shield,mirror image, web, dispel magic, slow]

4e
Adult Red Dragon Level 15 Solo Soldier
Large natural magical beast (dragon) XP 6,000
Initiative +13 Senses Perception +15; darkvision
HP 750; Bloodied 375; see also bloodied breath
AC 33; Fortitude 33, Reflex 30, Will 29
Resist 20 fire
Saving Throws +5
Speed 6, fly 8 (hover), overland flight 12
Action Points 2
Bite (standard; at-will) ✦Fire
Reach 2; +22 vs. AC; 2d8 + 7 plus 3d6 fire damage.
Claw (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +22 vs. AC; 2d8 + 7 damage.
Double Attack (standard; at-will)
The dragon makes two claw attacks.
Tail Strike (immediate reaction, when an enemy moves to a
position where it flanks the red dragon; at-will)
The dragon attacks the enemy with its tail: reach 2; +20 vs.
Reflex; 2d10 + 7 damage, and the target is pushed 1 square.
Breath Weapon (standard; recharge ) ✦Fire
Close blast 5; +20 vs. Reflex; 2d12 + 6 fire damage. Miss: Half
damage.
Bloodied Breath (free, when first bloodied; encounter) ✦ Fire
The dragon’s breath weapon recharges, and the dragon uses it
immediately.
Frightful Presence (standard; encounter) ✦Fear
Close burst 5; targets enemies; +20 vs. Will; the target is stunned
until the end of the dragon’s next turn. Aftereffect: The target
takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends).
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Bluff +14, Insight +15, Intimidate +19
Str 25 (+14) Dex 19 (+11) Wis 16 (+10)
Con 22 (+13) Int 13 (+8) Cha 14 (+9)

(Edit: Formatting)

 

[Li Shenron]

Also, it's the DM that makes monsters interesting. If a DM can't be bothered to do that and only treats monsters as stat blocks devoid of any personality/behavior that isn't explicitly listed in the stat block, they are a poor DM.

Imagine someone said that about the players making player's characters interesting. Would you buy a new edition's PHB if it gave each class 1-2 abilities only, and then tell you that it's the players responsible to be creative, e.g. by launching flasks of oil? That would not be a "wrong" RPG, in fact OD&D/BECMI is quite like that... but at the same time not what most people expect from a game launched in 2014.

Not that I think the 5e MM monsters are empty or uninterested, but [MENTION=2518]Derren[/MENTION] has a legitimate point indeed. It is the responsibility of the designers to provide character material and monster material which is interesting. I think the 5e MM is overall fine about that. It is also their responsibility to help DMs of various skills run the game, which is why they kept many monsters really simple, for DMs who aren't very skilled at running monsters. So there's a balance to strike between the two.

I myself prefer complex monsters, but the big deal is that if WotC also put good monster advancement rules in the DMG, that (fairly) simple monsters are good for me too, because with those rules we are able not only easily able to make more complex monsters, but also vary them a lot.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Imagine someone said that about the players making player's characters interesting.

If all the players did was look at their character sheet and say, "I use this power." and didn't attempt at any actual role-playing in a Godforbid role-playing game?

Then yeah, I would say they are doing a poor job at being players.

Would you buy a new edition's PHB if it gave each class 1-2 abilities only, and then tell you that it's the players responsible to be creative, e.g. by launching flasks of oil? That would not be a "wrong" RPG, in fact OD&D/BECMI is quite like that... but at the same time not what most people expect from a game launched in 2014..

I don't think anyone expects monsters to have anywhere near the same level of options as PCs for one, so your analogy is a bit of a false one. Secondly, with the popularity of the OSR, I'd say there are plenty of people that are perfectly fine with monsters only having 1-2 abilities. Just look at a lot of the responses in this very thread.

Monsters didn't have a half dozen special abilities for what, 30 years or so? And most DMs were more than able to make them interesting in play. Am I to expect that suddenly DMs got dumber in the past 10 years or something? I find that highly improbable.

 

[M.L. Martin]

For comparison's sake, here's the 13th Age hoardsong red dragon

Large 9th level spoiler [DRAGON]
Initiative: +13
Vulnerability: cold

Fangs and claws +14 vs. AC (3 attacks): 30 damage. Natural 16+: the target takes 15 extra damage from a precise strike.

C: Hoardsong +14 vs. MD (one nearby enemy in the dragon's lair)--10 psychic damage and the target is confused (save ends). Limited use:2/battle as a quick action

C: Precise breath +14 vs. PD (1d4+1 nearby enemies, or one enemy)--20 fire damage, and 10 ongoing fire damage OR 80 fire damage and 20 ongoing fire damage if used against a single enemy. Natural 18+: If the breath targeted multiple enemies, the target takes 20 ongoing fire damage instead of 10; if the breath targeted a single enemy, the target takes 40 ongoing damage instead of 20.

Intermittent breath: A hoardsong dragon can use precise breath 1d4 times per battle, but never two turns in a row.

Known to an ounce: A hoardsong dragon knows where every treasure in its hoard is located, allowing it to detect any movement or shifting of the coins and valuables. Whle in its lair with its hoard, the hoardsong dragon is immune to invisibility and ignores illusions, and creatures attempting to hide from it take a -5 penalty to their checks.

Resist fire 16+: When a fire attack targets this creature, the attacker must roll a natural 16+ on the attack roll or it only deals half damage.

AC 25 (26 in lair), PD 24, MD 18, HP 360

This is leaving out the 'nastier specials' of summoning hoard spirits or attaching a pre-fight charm or stun affect to its hoard.

 

[Schmoe]

I am amazed people prefer this

[sblock]Adult Red Dragon: CR 15; Huge dragon (fire); HD 22d12+110, hp 253; Init +4; Spd 40ft., fly 150 ft. (poor); AC 29, touch 8, flat-footed 29; Base Atk+22; Grp +41; Atk +31 melee (2d8+11, bite); Full Atk +31 melee (2d8+11, bite), +26 melee (2d6+5, 2 claws), +26 melee (1d8+5, 2 wings), +26 melee (2d6+16, tail slap); Space/Reach15 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with bite); SA breath weapon, crush, frightful presence, snatch, spell-like abilities, spells; SQ blindsense 60 ft., damage reduction 5/magic, darkvision 120 ft., immunity to fire, magic sleep effects, and paralysis, low-light vision, spell resistance 21, vulnerability to cold; AL CE; SV Fort +18, Ref +15, Will +17; Str 33, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 16.
Skills and Feats: Appraise +25, Bluff +19, Concentration +24, Diplomacy +20, Gather Information +14, Hide –8, Jump +37, Knowledge (arcana) +18, Knowledge (local) +18, Listen +26, Search +25, Sense Motive +10, Spellcraft +15, Spot +28; Cleave, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Snatch, Wingover.
Breath Weapon (Su): 50-ft. cone, 12d10 fire, Reflex DC 25 half.
Crush (Ex): Area 15 ft. by 15 ft.; Small or smaller opponents take 2d8+15 points of bludgeoning damage, and must succeed on a DC 25 Reflex save or be pinned.
Frightful Presence (Ex): 180-ft. radius, HD 21 or fewer, Will DC 24 negates.
Snatch (Ex): Against Small or smaller creatures, bite for 2d8+11/round or claw for 2d6+5/round.
Spell-Like Abilities: 6/day—locate object. Caster level 7th.
Spells: As 7th-level sorcerer.
Sorcerer Spells Known(6/7/7/5; save DC 13 + spell level): 0—arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand, read magic, resistance; 1st—alarm, divine favor, magic missile, protection from good, shield; 2nd—cat’s grace, darkness, shatter; 3rd—dispel magic, protection from energy.[/sblock]to this

[Sblock]View attachment 63680[/sblock]

Your comparison doesn't show what you think it does. All it does is show the power of a pretty presentation. For comparison, here's the 3E version:
[sblock]Adult Red Dragon: CR 15; Huge dragon (fire); HD 22d12+110, hp 253; Init +4; Spd 40ft., fly 150 ft. (poor); AC 29, touch 8, flat-footed 29; Base Atk+22; Grp +41; Atk +31 melee (2d8+11, bite); Full Atk +31 melee (2d8+11, bite), +26 melee (2d6+5, 2 claws), +26 melee (1d8+5, 2 wings), +26 melee (2d6+16, tail slap); Space/Reach15 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with bite); SA breath weapon, crush, frightful presence, snatch, spell-like abilities, spells; SQ blindsense 60 ft., damage reduction 5/magic, darkvision 120 ft., immunity to fire, magic sleep effects, and paralysis, low-light vision, spell resistance 21, vulnerability to cold; AL CE; SV Fort +18, Ref +15, Will +17; Str 33, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 16.
Skills and Feats: Appraise +25, Bluff +19, Concentration +24, Diplomacy +20, Gather Information +14, Hide –8, Jump +37, Knowledge (arcana) +18, Knowledge (local) +18, Listen +26, Search +25, Sense Motive +10, Spellcraft +15, Spot +28; Cleave, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Snatch, Wingover.
Breath Weapon (Su): 50-ft. cone, 12d10 fire, Reflex DC 25 half.
Crush (Ex): Area 15 ft. by 15 ft.; Small or smaller opponents take 2d8+15 points of bludgeoning damage, and must succeed on a DC 25 Reflex save or be pinned.
Frightful Presence (Ex): 180-ft. radius, HD 21 or fewer, Will DC 24 negates.
Snatch (Ex): Against Small or smaller creatures, bite for 2d8+11/round or claw for 2d6+5/round.
Spell-Like Abilities: 6/day—locate object. Caster level 7th.
Spells: As 7th-level sorcerer.
Sorcerer Spells Known(6/7/7/5; save DC 13 + spell level): 0—arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand, read magic, resistance; 1st—alarm, divine favor, magic missile, protection from good, shield; 2nd—cat’s grace, darkness, shatter; 3rd—dispel magic, protection from energy.[/sblock]

And here is the 5E version in the same format:

[sblock]Adult Red Dragon: Challenge 17 (18,000 XP); Huge dragon; HD 19d12+133, hp 256; Spd 40ft., climb 40ft., fly 180 ft.; AC 19 (natural armor); Actions: Multiattack, Bite +14 melee (2d10+8 pierce + 2d6 fire), Claw +14 melee (2d6+8 slash), Tail +14 melee (2d8+8 bludgeon), Frightful Presence, Fire Breath (Recharge 5-6); Legendary Actions: Detect, Tail Attack, Wing Attack (2 actions); Space 15ft.; Reach 15 ft. with Tail/10 ft. with bite/5 ft. with claw; SD Legendary Resistance (3/day); SQ blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 120 ft., immunity to fire, passive Perception 23; AL CE; SV Dex +6, Con +13, Wis +7, Cha +11; Str 27, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 21.
Skills: Perception +13, Stealth +6
Multi-Attack: Use frightful presence followed by one bite and two claw attacks
Fire Breath (Recharge 5-6): 60-ft. cone, 18d6 fire, Dexterity DC 21 half.
Frightful Presence: 120-ft. radius, Wisdom DC 19 negates or frightened 1 round
Detect (Legendary): Make a Wisdom (Perception) check
Tail Attack (Legendary): Make a tail attack.
Wing Attack (Legendary, 2 Actions): 10-ft. radius, 2d6+8 damage and knocked prone, Dexterity DC 22 negates. Fly up to 1/2 flying speed.[/sblock]

It doesn't look that much simpler to me. There are a lot fewer skills and no feats, but otherwise the only difference is the 5E version has fewer tactical options.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don't like the simplicity of 5e monsters because they aren't. I like tactical complexity as in 4e where the options lead to the way the monster moved and behaved, and I like the simplicity of BECMI monsters (as Steeldragons has illustrated). These are different purposes and I like both. What I don't like is the approach that gives complexity without interactivity shared by 3.X and 5e (and worse yet by 2e where you had to frequently read an entire page of turgid prose to find out the monster's actual abilities). The 5e monsters appear to me to be in the unpleasant no man's land that's good for neither purpose.