Do you make clerics research new spells not in the PHB?

[yesnomu]

Our 3.5 DM would let me prepare whatever I wanted for my Druid, but I had to vet it with him first, and he reserved the right to nerf/ban if it got out of hand in-game (RIP Venomfire). The idea was that druids channel the power of nature, and it's a little silly for nature to "withhold" spells.

 

[Deset Gled]

IMHO study,research, and development is the price wizards pay for being in control. Low to zero cost access to divine magic is a benefit of wielding power that a deity can take away if service has been unsatisfactory.

While I understand the theory here, I think that this design philosophy is flawed. Following this theory means that divine casters have significantly more power creep than arcane casters. It's one of the underlying causes of the CoDzilla; divine casters get new spells as soon as a new book comes out, but Wizards have to pay for them, and Sorcerers might even have to die to get access to new spells.

Generally speaking, the type of game I've played with has had minimalistic use of splatbooks, so this isn't an issue. However, I've also seen powergaming players who abuse this. IMO, making a character research a divine spell would be an excellent house rule to tone down powercreep for players who want a more exotic spell list.

 

[small pumpkin man]

Yes. 200gp/spell level and access to an appropriate temple.

It wasn't to prevent the Divine Casters from walking all over combat encounters, but it to prevent them from pulling incredibly specific spell "blah" from a splat which allows them to completely ignore this particular non-combat encounter with just 15 minutes rest.

 

[ExploderWizard]

While I understand the theory here, I think that this design philosophy is flawed. Following this theory means that divine casters have significantly more power creep than arcane casters. It's one of the underlying causes of the CoDzilla; divine casters get new spells as soon as a new book comes out, but Wizards have to pay for them, and Sorcerers might even have to die to get access to new spells.

Generally speaking, the type of game I've played with has had minimalistic use of splatbooks, so this isn't an issue. However, I've also seen powergaming players who abuse this. IMO, making a character research a divine spell would be an excellent house rule to tone down powercreep for players who want a more exotic spell list.

The flaw would be assuming that anything that comes out in a splatbook is fair game. Note that the acquisition suggestions involved either finding the spells, or questing for them. The DM determines what can found or what quests are assigned.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

In my campaign if a Cleric wants to learn a non-PHB spell then they have to get rid of one of the PHB spells of the same level to replace it. The player gets to choose which spells he swaps in and out but the number of spells the Cleric has access to will always stay the same.

I (as DM) also reserve the right to veto any non-PHB spells that I want. That rule applies for all spells, not just Cleric spells. I'd rather let a player take a spell and test it out in the campaign instead of just banning it straight off the bat.

My players are well aware though that I can and will remove any spells I see that are dominating the game. I haven't had to do it so far though so all is good.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Vascant]

Have the cleric's deity reveal the existance of new powerful prayers but the cleric is required to undertake a quest to prove worthy enough to receive them.

This has been how I have handled it for years, and other clerics of the same god do not get it simply because it now exists. They also must prove themselves worthy. What can happen is several clerics can make the effort together but this depends upon the inner politics of the clergy more then anything unless there is something explicit in the quest that prevents it. Sometime costs are rather expensive but I do not make the cost a direct relation to the new prayer but rather one of many steps the cleric may take to completing the quest. Example would be the cleric could purchase expensive books regarding some event or travel a great distance for another method to gain the same knowledge.

 

[yesnomu]

This has been how I have handled it for years, and other clerics of the same god do not get it simply because it now exists. They also must prove themselves worthy.

So what makes the PHB spells less discriminating of worthiness? I'm not sure my Miracle-toting cleric has anything to prove if he wants to pick up a newly-published cantrip, or even a different level 9 spell for that matter.

The problem is that divine magic isn't researched, it's granted. When a new spell is published, it's always been there. It's not a "new development in magic" or anything like that, which you could plausibly flavor new Arcane spells as. It's silly to pretend that the PHB spells are a kind of "baseline" that everyone has access to, and the Spell Compendium stuff is jealously guarded secrets--put a spell from each side by side, and I (who doesn't really know the cleric list) would be hard-pressed to distinguish them.

 

[Vascant]

So what makes the PHB spells less discriminating of worthiness? I'm not sure my Miracle-toting cleric has anything to prove if he wants to pick up a newly-published cantrip, or even a different level 9 spell for that matter.

The problem is that divine magic isn't researched, it's granted. When a new spell is published, it's always been there. It's not a "new development in magic" or anything like that, which you could plausibly flavor new Arcane spells as. It's silly to pretend that the PHB spells are a kind of "baseline" that everyone has access to, and the Spell Compendium stuff is jealously guarded secrets--put a spell from each side by side, and I (who doesn't really know the cleric list) would be hard-pressed to distinguish them.

I didn't go into this because it was beyond the scope of the original topic but in my world there is no assumption that all clerics have access to all spells. Each god has his own spell list and each cleric's faith is determined. Based on these two you come up with a final list of spells that a specific cleric can select from. If a new spell comes out or that I develop for my game and I feel the a specific cleric in question has already proven himself worthy, then by all means they see the divine light. However, I do now assume anything is simply given as you would have it because you feel you have nothing to prove.

Let me state this also, wizards and sorcerers also do not get to blindly select spells when they gain a new level. The idea that every spell is open for selection is crazy. Sorcerers have their bloodline which almost creates the base spells, as does their moral and ethical swing but they can also select a bit longer and expensive route using a scroll as the base. Wizards base is determine by where exactly they are in the world at that given moment to create the baseline and even then there is a fair amount of research involved. The default method for wizards is actually the more expensive and time consuming, most adventuring wizards will use the direct work of others to resolve this and by using a spell book of a slain wizard or unrestricted access from a close friend.

All classes go through some sort of learning process, just the nature of learning.. I do know my world is not for everyone but I figure that is why there are others that DM but I do have 29 people that I DM for over the course of a month and they do enjoy my world, so that is what I focus on.

 

[roguerouge]

One DM I play with has a neat house rule. You can select spells from other sources, but you have to subtract a spell that you can cast from your spell list. (That is, no subtracting spells from your banned schools; also, you can't use items with that spell without a UMD check.) This has the effect of limiting complexity, allowing players to customize, and retaining balance.

 

[ExploderWizard]

So what makes the PHB spells less discriminating of worthiness? I'm not sure my Miracle-toting cleric has anything to prove if he wants to pick up a newly-published cantrip, or even a different level 9 spell for that matter.

The problem is that divine magic isn't researched, it's granted. When a new spell is published, it's always been there. It's not a "new development in magic" or anything like that, which you could plausibly flavor new Arcane spells as. It's silly to pretend that the PHB spells are a kind of "baseline" that everyone has access to, and the Spell Compendium stuff is jealously guarded secrets--put a spell from each side by side, and I (who doesn't really know the cleric list) would be hard-pressed to distinguish them.

It depends on how the game world is set up. If the DM says, Core only without any other conditional statements then the default is yes, all clerics have access to the same basic spell list from the PHB.