Do you play Dragons in lair, right??

[Sir ThornCrest]

Not attacks? are you talking about all the grammar and protocol critics posting negative humor / criticism comments? They have said some mean spirited, insulting things, all most all of which were uncalled for. So I would classify them as attacks.

But it takes all kinds to make the D&D world go around.
Thorncrest

...

Except that it wasn't an attack at all...

 

[DungeonMaster]

Ok... so what type of demon was the possesing entity?
What spell like abilities did it have?

Now that the body is dead, presuming this is per magic-jar, the demon should be back in his own body and you should have an encounter coming up it. Maybe we can help you there.

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

ok so so more info is needed it is a book now! Briallant energy arrows he had 5 now 4 they can only be used 1 time a day each.

Thorncrest

DM: She was a CR 13 encounter. But the EL was higher, as I admitted (EL is adjusted for circumstances, but CR is static). Subtle difference. And the item she had was really the only houserule that mattered. The houseruled half-nymph template (because at the time there was no official template) was irrelevant because she could have just as easily been a full nymph and had basically the same effect (it would have precluded her from needing to take the cleric levels, for instance).

If you compare what the item did with the casting ability of a 13th-or 14th-level wizard with standard core items (including something to give a slight caster level boost, but 3.5 has plenty of those), you'll find that she wasn't hitting any harder than a wizard casting cones of cold and quickened fireballs (in fact, that wizard would have put out more hurt per round). If I wanted a staff that shot off cones of cold and quickened fireballs, I could make that cheaply with the core rules. So no, it wasn't really my house rules. It was the min-maxing player and the fact that we were doing this right after 3.5 came out but before any of the 3.5 splatbooks (and thus using 3.0 PrCs).

Thorncrest: There are no such things as touch attack arrows. If you allow them, its your own fault if nearly half the big monsters in the game (the half that have extremely high natural armour as their only main source of AC) become greatly weakened.

 

[DungeonMaster]

DM: She was a CR 13 encounter. But the EL was higher, as I admitted (EL is adjusted for circumstances, but CR is static).

I do understand the difference thanks.

If you compare what the item did with the casting ability of a 13th-or 14th-level wizard with standard core items (including something to give a slight caster level boost, but .5 has plenty of those), you'll find that she wasn't hitting any harder than a wizard casting cones of cold and quickened fireballs (in fact, that wizard would have put out more hurt per round). If I wanted a staff that shot off cones of cold and quickened fireballs, I could make that cheaply with the core rules. So no, it wasn't really my house rules. It was the min-maxing player and the fact that we were doing this right after 3.5 came out but before any of the 3.5 splatbooks (and thus using 3.0 PrCs).

Re-evaluating it I'de vouch it up to very particular circumstances. The wizards probably weren't very competent despite their inflated levels and PrC. After one or two rounds an antimagic field and a fighter grappling her would be in order. That or a simple power-word kill. If you can't hit the AC and can't touch the saves then it's time to drop all magic or aim for a no-save.

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

the dragon caused a ton of damage, he just lost do to some great rolling by the party
he wasnt a dragon with free will to laeve he was stuck under the control of a demon who didnt care about his host's body.

thorncrest

Let's look at this first.

An very old white dragon has a breath weapon save of Reflex DC 29. And a Frightful Presence aura of 270 ft radius with a Will DC 25. You forgot the Frightful Presence (mistake 1)

Dragon appears - party must make saves verse frightful presence. 14th level party - good saves are base +9 and poor saves are base +4. Assume a +4 for heighten stats and other misc, meaning good saves are +13 and poor saves are +8.

Cleric, Arcane Trickster, Monk need a 12 or higher to save, Ranger and Fighter need a 17 or higher to save.

Let's be generous and say the cleric, trickster and monk all save but the ranger and fighter don't save. Fighter and Ranger are now -2 to hit, saves, and skill checks due to being shaken.

Dragon breathes. Reflex save is DC 29. Reflex is poor for Cleric, Fighter, so +8 to saves for them, +13 to saves for others since they have reflex good save category.

Which means the Fighter (-2 to save for shaken) and Cleric must roll natural 20 to save, the Ranger must roll 18 or higher (-2 to save for shaken) and the others must roll 16 or higher to save.

Now....I don't know what magic items your party had, but I find it highly improbable that everyone saved verses the breath weapon and noone took any damage.



Not by RAW. Your house rule seriously slewed the outcome of this encounter (mistake 2). If the house rule applies equally, then as I showed above, about half of your party should have been stunned by the dragon's breath, since it is highly improbable that everyone saved.



By the RAW, that is not how brilliant energy weapons work (mistake 3). The dragon still has his natural armor bonuses.

There might be other factors that may be questionable.

Given the above, and your house rules and intepretation of the RAW, the outcome comes as no surprise to me. And therefore, should be no surprise to you.

If you played by the RAW, the dragon should have laid a drubbing on the party. They may have still won but it would have hard fight..... not the pathetic outcome that result.

If you posted to get a sense of what went wrong, the above shows the major problems.

If you are posting to crow about how your party took down a white dragon without any damage to themselves, then you should be aware that most people on these boards are not impressed by such bravado, particularly when it is not warranted. The dragon, by the way you played the rules, really didn't stand much of chance....

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

No, I wasnt angry I was shocked at the good rolling of the party and a couple of bad rolls of the dragon. The Dragon caused a good 250 probably 300 hit points to the party so he did a good deal and was a very good challenge.


Thorncrest


..

When you said



in your opening post, you made it seem like you had a problem with the outcome.

If you didn't, well, that's far out man.

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

I didnt forget about the frightful aura, you assumed wrong.
I did make some mod's by adding on a demon sorcerer template...
I didnt want to make a book out of this freakin encounter
it was tough he caused a lot of damage the pc's rolled extremely well that has been the piont all along....I tooo am shocked at the party's rolling...thats why I posted it!!!!

Thorncrest

Let's look at this first.

An very old white dragon has a breath weapon save of Reflex DC 29. And a Frightful Presence aura of 270 ft radius with a Will DC 25. You forgot the Frightful Presence (mistake 1)

Dragon appears - party must make saves verse frightful presence. 14th level party - good saves are base +9 and poor saves are base +4. Assume a +4 for heighten stats and other misc, meaning good saves are +13 and poor saves are +8.

Cleric, Arcane Trickster, Monk need a 12 or higher to save, Ranger and Fighter need a 17 or higher to save.

Let's be generous and say the cleric, trickster and monk all save but the ranger and fighter don't save. Fighter and Ranger are now -2 to hit, saves, and skill checks due to being shaken.

Dragon breathes. Reflex save is DC 29. Reflex is poor for Cleric, Fighter, so +8 to saves for them, +13 to saves for others since they have reflex good save category.

Which means the Fighter (-2 to save for shaken) and Cleric must roll natural 20 to save, the Ranger must roll 18 or higher (-2 to save for shaken) and the others must roll 16 or higher to save.

Now....I don't know what magic items your party had, but I find it highly improbable that everyone saved verses the breath weapon and noone took any damage.



Not by RAW. Your house rule seriously slewed the outcome of this encounter (mistake 2). If the house rule applies equally, then as I showed above, about half of your party should have been stunned by the dragon's breath, since it is highly improbable that everyone saved.



By the RAW, that is not how brilliant energy weapons work (mistake 3). The dragon still has his natural armor bonuses.

There might be other factors that may be questionable.

Given the above, and your house rules and intepretation of the RAW, the outcome comes as no surprise to me. And therefore, should be no surprise to you.

If you played by the RAW, the dragon should have laid a drubbing on the party. They may have still won but it would have hard fight..... not the pathetic outcome that result.

If you posted to get a sense of what went wrong, the above shows the major problems.

If you are posting to crow about how your party took down a white dragon without any damage to themselves, then you should be aware that most people on these boards are not impressed by such bravado, particularly when it is not warranted. The dragon, by the way you played the rules, really didn't stand much of chance....

 

[Rystil Arden]

Thorncrest: Please excuse me if I sound pedantic here, but I have told you twice and BlackMoria has told you that Brilliant Energy arrows are not a touch attack. Repeat: NOT A TOUCH ATTACK. The Dragon gets all his natural armour against them.

DM: One note which should not matter. I had forgotten that the PC Nymph Archmage was not present for this fight (all the other Archmages were). The NPCs had been primed by the PCs expecting a level 28 EldritchKnight/MysticTheurge to be their enemy, so they didn't lead off with Power Word Kill (I played the NPCs according to the tactics given them by the PCs, who had no clue that their enemy had so few HP). Remember also that Antimagic Field is a 10-ft emanation centred on the caster. All of the powerful NPCs sent magical proxies, so the only one who could have used Antimagic Field was the Diviner, the lowest-level of the bunch (if the others had cast it, they would have dispelled themselves), and he didn't prepare the spell because he didn't want the BBEG to slaughter him in melee (and by the time you are close enough to them to hit them with the field, you are in slaughter range, if they were fighting the BBEG, he would have gotten an AoO just for coming that close, and diviners without their magic on go bye-bye). The PCs' tactics were generally sound. And they did win the fight (sort of) and get back the Source.

The circumstance against the PCs is that they didn't have to fight who they expected to fight. But they did have lots of high level NPCs.

 

[Bastoche]

What is the point of that thread?

 

[Mark]

I just noticed the end of your post, what poblem? I dont thin there is one?

Ah, I see. You aren't asking for help because you feel that everything went as planned. You were only tellnig the tale of the "triple crit". I will be sure to read your posts with a more discerning eye in the future. Good luck with your game.