Do you "save" the PCs?

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When the playes make it clear that "retreat" isn't in their vocabulary, it's time for a spelling bee challenge. E.g. Party attacks an ancient blue dragon on very little provocation. "Why would they do such a thing?" I wonder in confusion, almost sadness. A maximized breath and a nasty snatch attack later, and the PCs are still fighting. Then the dragon grabs the wizard and eats him. That's when they finally decided it was time to retreat.
 

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I ask myself if there is some reasonable way they could survive

Nod. If the other players come up with some plausible "sounds kind crazy but it just might work" way of saving their friend, I'm happy to be a soft judge in allowing it to work.

Two examples in 28 years of gaming:
-- PC is falling off a height that will kill him (or into something deadly, I forget since this was about 1990). Another player with a chain weapon lassoes him with a to-hit roll, and he doesn't fall after all.

-- Druid PC is drained by a shadow, which would turn him into a shadow. But the fight is right next to hallowed ground. Other PC uses Speak With Animals to tell the druid's familiar to drag him onto the hallowed ground, before the druids init comes up (when death from bleeding out would normally happen). Hallowed ground = can't form undead, so he doesn't go undead after all.

But mostly, it's good to allow death to happen, because danger = fun.
 

Sometimes. I'm not concerned about making my games challengeless, because there is more to challenge than fights.

But when we play one-shots, with little time to develop interactions or events, I let the players know my goal is a TPK. And I tend to succeed. Good fun is had by all.
 

StreamOfTheSky said:
He also chooses the opposition and the location, among other things. If you screwed up and seeded the PCs against a top 5 team it turns out they never really had a chance to beat, that's your fault. If "homefield advantage" works out for team Monsters better than you anticipated, that's your fault.

Umbran said:
So your GM doesn't happen to put together the monsters, and put them in the locations? Your players do that too?

So you have never played a game in which you as a player get to decide the moves of your pieces? Your opponent, or the programmer, or the GM always does that for you, too? And always makes sure that you win, regardless of your moves?

Regardless, it was not of your experience that I wrote. I see no reason not to believe that all the others who wrote of acting impartially were speaking for themselves as well.

Reynard said:
What I don't understand is why this is so difficult for people to believe.

Well, look at your own jumping through hoops to bring in "modules" -- and so to add a camel to the flea.

Some trends go back a long time, back before some folks started playing. Some people have never known anything but the rigging of things, from the DM fiat suggested in the thread's title to the DM dictation of "encounters" that SOTS took for granted, and upon which certain notions of "balance" depend. White Wolf was pushing a couple of decades ago a model that has since become the new norm.

It is not exceptional for people to lack the mental agility to consider that there might be other possibilities.
 


Many groups use modules exclusively, in which case the GM doesn't "create" any adventures and is in fact a referee in the contest between the PCs and the adventure.

Typically the GM still chooses the module, no? Maybe the players are handing the GM the module, or the GM is rolling a die to randomly determine the module used. But then the GM made a choice to agree to the method of module choice. Somewhere along the line, a choice, an act of will on the GM's part, is involved.

And, somewhat more directly - the GM is making all the choices for one of the sides. Claiming he's a referee is rather like claiming the guy in the black and white striped shirt with the whistle is only a neutral referee, when he's also calling all the other team's plays.

What I don't understand is why this is so difficult for people to believe.

It isn't at all difficult to believe. I used to play in that line when we took up AD&D way back when.

...how is that the gm's fault?

It is only "fault" if the players don't have fun. There is no need to try to dodge "fault" if you're pretty sure folks will, overall, like the results. If you can see it coming, and really think that in the long run they'll be happier for having gotten wiped out, you should stand up proudly and support your decision to do that. There's only a need to shift blame to the players if you think there's something wrong with the proceedings.

I was in a campaign once, where the entire party got wiped out in the first session. We stayed up into the early hours of the morning, and made new characters, with most of us changing classes from what we started with, and plunged into the same dungeon. Two decades later we still play those characters once a summer - we are very happy we had that TPK, because it added a bonding experience, and we're pretty sure we like the second party more than we'd have liked the first - better characters with more entertaining personalities the second time around. We are all happy with the result, and the GM.

Another time, a different group, a different game - the party ended stuck in a position where the only way out of a situation was unacceptable to the players. It was, in essence, a TPK that the players could not have possibly foreseen (and thus could not have chosen to avoid) and pretty much ruined the game if allowed to stand. The GM owned up that he'd misread us, took responsibility, and rewrote the ending of the adventure to something that was a reasonable compromise. We continued playing under him for years afterward because he could take responsibility and act accordingly.

But really, that's not the point of what I was trying to say earlier. I was more reacting to the sophistry about it being "some other game". There's two leagues - one uses pinch hitters, the other doesn't, but neither tries to claim they aren't both playing baseball.

That doesn't mean you need to use a pinch hitter. Just don't try to disown the other league.
 

Typically the GM still chooses the module, no? Maybe the players are handing the GM the module, or the GM is rolling a die to randomly determine the module used.
When I've used modules, it's because of a lack of time to make stuff up myself.

Reading multiple modules & evaluating them in reference to the party's strengths is out of the question. I'll take something that is recommended and run with it.

The choice is essentially random due to practical constraints, even if it is in theory all 100% under my control.

Cheers, -- N
 

If they are too stupid or too proud to run away, they die. I have played characters who were honor bound to never flee, and thus, died.
Yup. As a DM, it;'s my job to make sure that the players aren't blind-sided by this occurrence. I don't mind them trying to take on more than they can chew, but there should be hints that they're walking into a no-win situation.

I almost always rewrite and rebalance encounters in a 3rd party module, incidentally. I know far better than a stranger what's fun and appropriate for my players. When I write modules, I hope other DMs do this with my stuff, too.
 

So you have never played a game in which you as a player get to decide the moves of your pieces? Your opponent, or the programmer, or the GM always does that for you, too? And always makes sure that you win, regardless of your moves?

By my recollection, you've tried the equivalent of this hyperbolic line of argument several times before in similar threads. I've never seen any evidence that it ever changed anyone's mind, or been particularly constructive in building understanding. You might want to reconsider your approach.

Specifically, I think you're the only one who has used the word "always" here. My recollection is that you rather regularly take this line - when folks talk about the possibility of the GM becoming part of the process, you leap to absolutes - the GM always choosing everything. It's a highly flawed argument, due to the scope mismatch.

Well, look at your own jumping through hoops to bring in "modules" -- and so to add a camel to the flea.

Dude, he was actually helping the case somewhat, by adding in someone we could probably agree was a neutral party - some game writer nobody at the table has probably ever met.

If you want to right off the bat claim the same person who makes up the other team, creates the ground on which the contest will be held, makes all the decisions for one side, interprets all rules for both teams, and hand out the rewards for winning, is somehow only neutral in the proceedings...

...well, it'll be a hard sell.
 
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Reading multiple modules & evaluating them in reference to the party's strengths is out of the question. I'll take something that is recommended and run with it.

Yes, but you're a reasonable dude - I'll be willing to bet (admittedly small) money that you specifically choose something level-appropriate. And, if it did turn out to be too much, and wiped the floor with the party, you'd probably not be too happy with your choice.

That's sufficient for my point.
 

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