Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

[Spatzimaus]

Haste as the first 3rd level spell for a sorcerer? I really have to disagree. What good is two spells per round if all you're throwing out is Acid Arrows? Is two Acid Arrows per round going to help the party against a charging horde of orcs?

No, if you're a level 6 Sorcerer you Haste the Fighter, or the Cleric, or the Rogue, etc. and let THEM do the double-damage thing. Then you take Fireball or whatever as your next spell. But that's a style thing, if you like being the one doing the massive damage, go ahead and take Fireball. For me, I was grouped with a Wizard who liked nuking, so I'd haste him instead. The party's damage output was increased by teh same amount, and the group is better off with a Sorcerer who can haste 4 times per day at level 6 (and 6 times at level 7).

In the end, though, I think the biggest indication that it's broken is that it's never a question of whether it'd help. It ALWAYS helps.

Anyway, to the "solutions" part:
Rapid Strikes already gives an extra attack, Expeditious Retreat gives more movement, so saying "no casting" isn't really a good solution.
You could say that the extra partial action always happens before your normal action (which would mean someone hasting themselves doesn't get the benefit until the next turn) but that doesn't change targetted Haste or Mass Haste much; the other people still get full benefit.
You could remove the AC.
You could move it to level 4.
You could add an XP cost paid by the TARGET (the analog to the aging).

Or, you could add some other downside. One thing I've been thinking of trying: it's not normal for someone to be moving that fast, so all of their instincts will be off. This'd be very distracting; you'd be tripping over things unless you concentrate. I'm thinking "-2 to all skill or ability checks and no Take 10 allowed" or something similar. Maybe add that since your metabolism is sped up you're more vulnerable to things like poison and disease (-4 to all Fort saves and secondary times go from 1 minute to 1 round for poison or 1 day to 1 hour for disease)

 

[Artoomis]

Truly, the simplest "fix" is to require XP from the TARGET.

Will haste still be used? Sure. Will it be used all the time? No.

 

[AuraSeer]

Truly, the simplest "fix" is to require XP from the TARGET.

Will haste still be used? Sure. Will it be used all the time? No.

Sure it will. I'll use it offensively, and over time I will reduce all my enemies to first level.

 

[Berk]

quote:Originally posted by Artoomis
Truly, the simplest "fix" is to require XP from the TARGET.

Will haste still be used? Sure. Will it be used all the time? No.
Sure it will. I'll use it offensively, and over time I will reduce all my enemies to first level.

ROFL!!!!!!

Finally some humor to this 20 page topic. =o)

 

[IceBear]

What's the XP penalty you're thinking of Artoomis?

IceBear

 

[Artoomis]

What's the XP penalty you're thinking of Artoomis?

IceBear

? Something fairly nominal that will add up over time.

50 XP?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

? Something fairly nominal that will add up over time.

50 XP?

A plausible penalty at low levels but that doesn't seem like that would work once you hit mid-levels.

An 8th level character is going to earn ~600 xp per 'typical' encounter. Losing 50xp is inconvenient enough that I will think twice. But I will earn 1000-1200 xp in a big battle, and I definitely will still sacrifice for those encounters.

Fast forward to 12th level and I won't think twice about taking the hit for the team every time when I have ~900 xp coming my way.

IMHO it is an uncomfortable peculiarity of Haste that it is more powerful in the hands of higher level characters. I think that is a legitimate problem. This xp penalty would not address that issue.

 

[Lela]

I never had a desire for Boot of Haste. In fact, in all our campaigns, I think there is only one character that has them.

Now boots of striding and springing...those are powerful boots.

I agree. There isn't a player in my campaign who doesn't have those blasted things. In fact, I've lowered the price and made them readily avalible to anyone who can pay. This means that anyone with the least bit of money or investment in moving quickly will have them. About a third of the people in cities are moving at 60 ft per round and don't bother with horses (you have to fead, water, and house those things) when outside. The boots are a better investment.

I then doubled the cost of Horseshoes of Speed. Seeing as speed means less at 60 ft, horses going at double are that much more important. It's a tricky market out there.

My lance weilding, horse riding Fighter hates me for it. I think I'm doing something right.

 

[WizarDru]

An interesting discussion, with reasonable arguments on both sides. I listen with interest from the fence.

Let me ask this: how unbalancing would it be to merely make Haste a full round action to cast, as opposed to a standard one? Maintain the +4 AC bonus, and the additional partial, but force the caster to spend one turn to activate it.

That removes the 'freebie' spell aspect that haste provides, adding more of a situational cost than anything else.

 

[Stalker0]

An interesting discussion, with reasonable arguments on both sides. I listen with interest from the fence.

Let me ask this: how unbalancing would it be to merely make Haste a full round action to cast, as opposed to a standard one? Maintain the +4 AC bonus, and the additional partial, but force the caster to spend one turn to activate it.

That removes the 'freebie' spell aspect that haste provides, adding more of a situational cost than anything else.

This is how I orginally thought haste worked, and in my mind was a lot more balanced. Basically, you spend a round to cast it, then get a partial action with your next turn.

Its definately one way to go to decreasing haste's power.