Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

[mkletch]

Read more carefully. He said low combat, not low magic.

I did not miss it, I twisted it a bit.

Not sure if it was this thread or another today that I posted the following, but I will risk being redundant here. 3E is primarily a combat system. Almost every spell or ability is related to combat. The skill system is weak at best. If you want to do combat-lite, 3E is really not your system. There has got to be something out there that will meet your requirements much better. Why keep throwing the horse up into the air trying to get it to fly; get a bird.

-Fletch!

 

[drowdude]

Now, now, let's play nice, shall we? Certainly, if Dispel Magic was a 9th level spell it wouldn't work quite the same way, would it?

See Mordenkainen's Disjunction

 

[AuraSeer]

Not sure if it was this thread or another today that I posted the following, but I will risk being redundant here. 3E is primarily a combat system. Almost every spell or ability is related to combat. The skill system is weak at best. If you want to do combat-lite, 3E is really not your system.

Exactly.
And it's in a combat-light game that spellcasters become overly powerful. When the mage always has enough time to rest, and therefore never has to concern himself about spell depletion, all spellcaster buffs (haste included) become tremendously more valuable.

In such a game, many spells are overpowered. If you consider that a problem, the solution is not to nerf each spell individually, but to change the pace of the campaign.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Haste is definitely overpowered.

Someone in the thread attempted to defend Haste by saying it was an essential part of the wizard's repertoire.

Bingo! That's the problem. If EVERY wizard has Haste, that's a problem. No other spell sees such ubiquitous use. Because it is just too good.

Haste is worthy of a 9th level spell slot. Easily.

Dispel Magic? Please. And don't say, "Well, Dispel Magic would work a little differently if it was 9th level," because what we're talking about is the fact that AS WRITTEN Haste is worthy of a 9th level spell slot.

I have characters now who don't take Dispel Magic. If I am a wizard or cleric, I try to get a scroll or two, but I hate memorizing it. I have better things to do when my action comes up-- like casting two hasted offensive spells. If the fighter falls prey to Hold Person, that's the breaks. Give us two or three hasted rounds to mop up and we'll take care of you later, ok?

As for a sorcerer, it's no contest: The first 3rd level slot you get, you take Haste. No question. Then you have to take your offensive spell. Then-- and this is just me-- I'd take Blink, but the bottom line is that Dispel Magic is a LOW priority.

If I were to set about fixing Haste, I would have it grant an extra move equivalent action and the AC bonus. It retains all of its benefits for fighter-types (who can still move and full attack), it still offers a distinct combat edge, it provides a +4 stackable AC bonus, all the while not allowing spellcasters any increased rate-of-fire for spellcasting.

Fine for 3rd level.


Wulf

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I wish the poll had more options rather than an on/off style poll.

I think it is slightly too good, I think it shouldn't have the +4to ac as well as the partial action. But I use it as is, because it is just a little to good, a high end 3rd level spell.

Basically I'm going to go with the number of encounters thing one side is talking about. Simple fact is inD&D spellcasters rule the roost if they only have to deal with a couple encoutners a day. They can easily way laste to their enemies, overcome all obstalces, and still have spells in the reserve. If you have a good number of encounters then blowing through spells isn't a good plan, saving spells and leting people handle it with grunt power is the better option. Haste is jsut a sympton of this rpoblem if you let the sor/wiz haste, then blow through spells killing everything in sight and then rest for the next day yeah they'll be too good.

 

[Bonedagger]

Posted by two
You simply can't take most of the spells you mention, pop them into the 9th level spell slot (assuming they could be gotten in no other way) and think anyone would take them. Time stop, or fly? Duh. Wish, or See Invisibility? Duh. You just don't get enough from FLY at that level, even if there is NO OTHER WAY TO FLY. Or see invis. Or etc. But with haste, you ask yourself: OK, do I want to cast TWO spells in a round of any level? This could indeed easily be seen as a level9, uber, end-all spell. Even at 9th level, you will say "heck YEAH" a lot of the time. As mentioned, haste+time stop, or haste+another 9th level spell is the start of any good wizard's Smack Down.

Notice that I mentioned that if there was no other way to gain similar effects. E.g. If you changed Haste to be 9th level it would be stupid to keep Mass Haste as a 6th level spell.

Haste gives you something no other spell does, plus it ramps up with level (2 9th level spells, anyone?). Plus it TAKES NO TIME TO CAST. Would you rather cast Haste+Meteor Swarm or just MS? C'mon. Be reasonable.

Or Time Stop + Meteor Swarm X.

Or Contigency + ?.

Finally, when will people stop it with the "burn your spells twice as fast" canard! As if this was a bad thing?

So you now don't think haste is a bad thing?

The way the rules are set up, there is no reason NOT to use haste. Oh, and I did mention the reasonably-cheap wand of Haste (50 charges) didn't I? Which will last about 3-4 character levels when used EVERY

That depend on how much spellcasting you intend to do. Haste is a spellcastingbuffer after all. No reason to buff up for two spells only. Then throw the haste on a fighter if you really itch to cast the spell. And I see the fact that Haste is not a on the Wand list in the DMG as a hint.

 

[Grog]

Dispel Magic? Please. And don't say, "Well, Dispel Magic would work a little differently if it was 9th level," because what we're talking about is the fact that AS WRITTEN Haste is worthy of a 9th level spell slot.

Dispel Magic may have been a bad example because of the +10 cap on it. But if the only way to ever dispel any kind of magic was with a 9th level spell? I'd bet almost everyone would take that. There are simply too many magical effects out there that players will want to dispel.

I have characters now who don't take Dispel Magic. If I am a wizard or cleric, I try to get a scroll or two, but I hate memorizing it. I have better things to do when my action comes up-- like casting two hasted offensive spells. If the fighter falls prey to Hold Person, that's the breaks. Give us two or three hasted rounds to mop up and we'll take care of you later, ok?

A Held fighter is vunerable to a CDG attack. Dispel Magic may be the only way to save his life.

As for a sorcerer, it's no contest: The first 3rd level slot you get, you take Haste. No question. Then you have to take your offensive spell. Then-- and this is just me-- I'd take Blink, but the bottom line is that Dispel Magic is a LOW priority.

Haste as the first 3rd level spell for a sorcerer? I really have to disagree. What good is two spells per round if all you're throwing out is Acid Arrows? Is two Acid Arrows per round going to help the party against a charging horde of orcs?

I've played two sorcerers, and my 3rd level spell picks always went: Fireball, Dispel Magic, Haste. In that order. Fourth spell was GMW for one and Fly for the other. I'd never take Haste first - but that's just me, of course.

 

[Stalker0]

While I think haste is a very powerful spell, even I don't see it as a 9th level spell or anything.

As is, probably a 4th or 5th level spell.

But personally, I'd rather see the spell weakned and kept at 3rd.

 

[Madfox]

Granted, I have not much experience with high level campaigns or even a high variety of low level campaigns. I do know that of all the wizards and sorcerers in my campaigns I have seen only one take haste as his first choice spell. It is a good spell, but at low levels it is a bit borring in the hands of a sorcerer. The wizard in my current campaign only tends to prepare one haste spell, but that might be because he also wants to prepare slow (ever met trolls or girralons and you know why you always want slow prepared ), dispel magic and lightning bolt. None of the players ever considered buying hasted items, except perhaps a potion. Whether they do it because they care about balance on a subconscious level or not is unknown to me.

Having said that, I do agree the spell is good. It probably is too good for a sorcerer at 3rd lvl, which is why I like Monte Cook's sorcerer. Monte Cook realized some spells are too good in the hands of a sorcerer while in the hands of a wizard they are reasonable. Shield is another such example. He raised them one level for the sorcerer. The problem is that this is based on a feeling and not on actual experience. Haste has yet to dominate my games.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Just in case there are any newbies out there still reading this thread: This is what's called a Flame War, at least by ENBoard standards. (Usenet et al. are worse, trust me.) Note especially the lack of new points or real discussion on either side.

Hmm, I just got to this thread, and I really don't think it bears much resemblance to a flame war. Moreover, there are several new points, or at least new variations on previous points, herein.

Grog's argument is elegant, concise, and seems to hold water; IMHO, however, it doesn't apply with particular force to haste. There certainly are "must-have" spells (invis, dispel magic, poly other) that would be valuable at any spell level, but there's a major difference between these spells and haste: They don't scale with the target's power level, whereas haste does. Let's look at haste's effects, shall we?

+4 dodge bonus: The only spell I can think of that grants this; a lovely AC bonus that stacks with all other AC bonuses, making it hugely useful both to mid-level characters (to whom +4 is a big AC boost) and to high-level types (who will likely have maxed out their armor (+enhancement), deflection, and nat armor bonuses with equipment and other magic, and whose dodge bonuses will stack with this anyway).

Extra partial action: It goes without saying that this becomes a bigger and bigger bennie with higher levels. A fighter can move and attack an extra once to three times depending on level (or more with two weapons), a rogue can move and full SA (both attacks and damage scale up with level in this case), and a caster gets the equivalent of Quicken Spell for free on one spell per level. Note that the latter is the ONLY means in the game, short of epic levels or weird PrCs, that allows casting of multiple 6th-9th-level spells.

Effective free casting time: This is huge at high levels. A high-level caster in a combat situation simply isn't going to waste a single action firing off anything less than the best spell he has, unless the threat wasn't a big deal to begin with (in which case it's likely that the caster isn't even going to need to act!). Once more, haste is the ONE low-level spell that breaks this rule (with the rather sad exception of feather fall and certain 3rd-party sourcebook spells).

With all this in mind, I'd either remove the +4 dodge bonus or rule that haste grants only an extra move action, which solves the multiple-cast problem, but not the move + full attack problem; I consider the former more serious than the latter, though. Otherwise, make the spell 5th level, and its mass version 8th; IMHO, it's worth such a serious spell expenditure, and casters will feel the hit all the way through high levels.

Conversely, haste also can be thwarted easily by use of the slow spell. If you raise its level or blunt its power, I'd suggest altering the effect of slow from automatic countering and dispelling to dispelling on a successful caster level check.