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Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?
- Thread starter Mulkhoran
- Start date
two said:
Let's say DISPEL MAGIC was only allowed as a Level 9 spell. How does it stack up? Would anyone ever take DISPEL MAGIC as a level 9 spell as opposed to Time Stop or Meteor Storm or Shapechange?
Amazingly, even if DISPEL MAGIC was a level 9 spell, it would probably be in most player's top 4 list of best level 9 spells!
See the point? You can make exactly the same argument about other lower level spells. Does that mean DISPEL MAGIC is overpowered?
Mulkhoran said:
That's exactly the point. 3E is designed with the party having to face several encounters in a row without resting in mind. It's balanced for that level of activity.
If you make it so your players face fewer encounters, then yes, Haste becomes more powerful. But with fewer encounters between rest breaks, spellcasters become much more powerful, even without Haste.
Look at Horrid Wilting. A 15th level wizard can do 15d8 damage to a dozen enemies at a time. A 15th level fighter can't even come close to that kind of offensive ability. But, the wizard can only cast Horrid Wilting once or twice per day. So if the party has ten encounters in one day, the spell is balanced.
But if the party only has one encounter a day, it's unbalanced. Because when the wizard can deal out 15d8 damage to a dozen enemies in every fight, the poor fighter is going to become basically irrelevant. Because even if the Horrid Wilting doesn't finish everyone off, the wizard can start slinging out Delayed Blast Fireballs, Disentegrates, Cones of Cold, etc. There's simply no way any fighter can measure up to a wizard who can throw out his entire aresnal of spells without having to worry about what's around the next corner.
The real problem is that a lot of people seem to be running their 3E campaigns in a way that the system isn't balanced for. Haste is only a symptom, not the problem.
two
First Post
Bonedagger quote: ALSO GROG on DISPEL MAGIC 9th LEVEL
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Posted by two
(Snip)
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Try and make Polymorph Other the only spell in the game that allows alteration of a physical body. Then move it to 9th level.... It would probably still be popular. Then try and do something similar with fly, Dispel Magic, Major Image, Heal, Ressurection, Invisibility/See Invisibillity, Detect Magic, Hold Person, Dimension Door etc... Being among the few who have access to those spells would probably make a major difference if there was no real alternative for similar magics.
If you only look at a single encounter then haste can be nice for a spellcaster since it allows him to burn of his magic twice as fast but in the cause of a campaign it is often a question of when to save your magic. Or it should be IMO. It's the challenge that makes it fun.
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TWO writes:
I really don't get this line of reasoning at all.
Would people pick FLY as a 9th level spell? Of course not. Shapechange does the trick, or levitate, or dimension door, or etc. Anyway, what's so great about flying when you can stop time? Heal? Equally unlikely. There are a 100 other ways to heal, if not that fully, or quickly. See Invisibility? Surely not. Plenty of other counters for it, including feats, creatures, other spells (glitterdust,etc.) etc. Major Image? Poly other? Why bother, just Meteor Storm them.
OK let's say Dispel Magic was 9th level, it was the only way to dispel magic in the game. Would you choose the spell as a Wizard, given your other choices? Answer: no. Why? Either: have a percentage chance of dispelling magic, or Shapechange. Or Meteor Swarm. Or Time Stop. Why both dispelling magic when you can just seriously KILL/HARM/HINDER the thing instead? Dispelling magic is just not that powerful compared to the other 9th level effects you can get. It's not even a certain thing!
You simply can't take most of the spells you mention, pop them into the 9th level spell slot (assuming they could be gotten in no other way) and think anyone would take them. Time stop, or fly? Duh. Wish, or See Invisibility? Duh. You just don't get enough from FLY at that level, even if there is NO OTHER WAY TO FLY. Or see invis. Or etc. But with haste, you ask yourself: OK, do I want to cast TWO spells in a round of any level? This could indeed easily be seen as a level9, uber, end-all spell. Even at 9th level, you will say "heck YEAH" a lot of the time. As mentioned, haste+time stop, or haste+another 9th level spell is the start of any good wizard's Smack Down.
Haste gives you something no other spell does, plus it ramps up with level (2 9th level spells, anyone?). Plus it TAKES NO TIME TO CAST. Would you rather cast Haste+Meteor Swarm or just MS? C'mon. Be reasonable.
Finally, when will people stop it with the "burn your spells twice as fast" canard! As if this was a bad thing?
???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you have an encounter at 8am, use haste, then use ALL your spells for the day -- yeah, you are screwed if you have another battle at 1pm. But guess what? You USED your spells for the party's benefit -- and by god it sounds like they needed it sorely!
Would you even have survived the 8am battle if you hadn't been hasted and double-casting for 10 rounds? Maybe you so completely annihilated the enemy that your fighters took almost no damage; your cleric used no spells; your rogue came out uninjured. At 1pm, during the next battle, sure you will be out of spells but the rest of the party will be near 100% health, the cleric will have full spells, and everyone will be ready.
I just don't get the logic here. If you USE a bunch of spells to kill bad guys -- that's a drawback how? That's a detriment how? Are you saying you should NOT have used as many spells so quickly, consequently letting the enemy hack the fighters and/or cleric, let the cleric burn 5 spells healing or summoning, let the rogue get to near death, etc?
?? Or worse, the unhasted wizard/bard/sorcerer might just have died then and there (or let other party members die). Talk about no more spells for the day!
Haste is great because it is insanely flexible. Once hasted, you can cast 4 spells in 2 rounds and stop there. Or not. If the battle is gnarly, just keep casting spells at 2 times the going rate for 10 rounds, if need be. If a sorcerer/wizard is in ANY battle that drains their haste+80% of current spells -- my god. The only way to survive such a nasty battle is via haste. If that same wizard is not hasted -- he/she will probably have died, plus plenty of party member owee as well.
To repeat: once hasted, you have the ABILITY to burn all your spells at 2ce the rate as usual. If this is necessary, then YES you are depleted for the rest of the day. If this is necessary, then YES you are alive. A non-hasted wizze would be DEAD.
I'm talking about the uber big battle. For small battles, one haste (3rd level spell) plus 4-5 other spells will probably do the trick. THat's 5-6 spells per small battle. You can do that 2-3 times a day as a wizard, more as a sorcerer (level 6+).
The way the rules are set up, there is no reason NOT to use haste. Oh, and I did mention the reasonably-cheap wand of Haste (50 charges) didn't I? Which will last about 3-4 character levels when used EVERY
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Posted by two
(Snip)
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Try and make Polymorph Other the only spell in the game that allows alteration of a physical body. Then move it to 9th level.... It would probably still be popular. Then try and do something similar with fly, Dispel Magic, Major Image, Heal, Ressurection, Invisibility/See Invisibillity, Detect Magic, Hold Person, Dimension Door etc... Being among the few who have access to those spells would probably make a major difference if there was no real alternative for similar magics.
If you only look at a single encounter then haste can be nice for a spellcaster since it allows him to burn of his magic twice as fast but in the cause of a campaign it is often a question of when to save your magic. Or it should be IMO. It's the challenge that makes it fun.
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TWO writes:
I really don't get this line of reasoning at all.
Would people pick FLY as a 9th level spell? Of course not. Shapechange does the trick, or levitate, or dimension door, or etc. Anyway, what's so great about flying when you can stop time? Heal? Equally unlikely. There are a 100 other ways to heal, if not that fully, or quickly. See Invisibility? Surely not. Plenty of other counters for it, including feats, creatures, other spells (glitterdust,etc.) etc. Major Image? Poly other? Why bother, just Meteor Storm them.
OK let's say Dispel Magic was 9th level, it was the only way to dispel magic in the game. Would you choose the spell as a Wizard, given your other choices? Answer: no. Why? Either: have a percentage chance of dispelling magic, or Shapechange. Or Meteor Swarm. Or Time Stop. Why both dispelling magic when you can just seriously KILL/HARM/HINDER the thing instead? Dispelling magic is just not that powerful compared to the other 9th level effects you can get. It's not even a certain thing!
You simply can't take most of the spells you mention, pop them into the 9th level spell slot (assuming they could be gotten in no other way) and think anyone would take them. Time stop, or fly? Duh. Wish, or See Invisibility? Duh. You just don't get enough from FLY at that level, even if there is NO OTHER WAY TO FLY. Or see invis. Or etc. But with haste, you ask yourself: OK, do I want to cast TWO spells in a round of any level? This could indeed easily be seen as a level9, uber, end-all spell. Even at 9th level, you will say "heck YEAH" a lot of the time. As mentioned, haste+time stop, or haste+another 9th level spell is the start of any good wizard's Smack Down.
Haste gives you something no other spell does, plus it ramps up with level (2 9th level spells, anyone?). Plus it TAKES NO TIME TO CAST. Would you rather cast Haste+Meteor Swarm or just MS? C'mon. Be reasonable.
Finally, when will people stop it with the "burn your spells twice as fast" canard! As if this was a bad thing?
???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you have an encounter at 8am, use haste, then use ALL your spells for the day -- yeah, you are screwed if you have another battle at 1pm. But guess what? You USED your spells for the party's benefit -- and by god it sounds like they needed it sorely!
Would you even have survived the 8am battle if you hadn't been hasted and double-casting for 10 rounds? Maybe you so completely annihilated the enemy that your fighters took almost no damage; your cleric used no spells; your rogue came out uninjured. At 1pm, during the next battle, sure you will be out of spells but the rest of the party will be near 100% health, the cleric will have full spells, and everyone will be ready.
I just don't get the logic here. If you USE a bunch of spells to kill bad guys -- that's a drawback how? That's a detriment how? Are you saying you should NOT have used as many spells so quickly, consequently letting the enemy hack the fighters and/or cleric, let the cleric burn 5 spells healing or summoning, let the rogue get to near death, etc?
?? Or worse, the unhasted wizard/bard/sorcerer might just have died then and there (or let other party members die). Talk about no more spells for the day!
Haste is great because it is insanely flexible. Once hasted, you can cast 4 spells in 2 rounds and stop there. Or not. If the battle is gnarly, just keep casting spells at 2 times the going rate for 10 rounds, if need be. If a sorcerer/wizard is in ANY battle that drains their haste+80% of current spells -- my god. The only way to survive such a nasty battle is via haste. If that same wizard is not hasted -- he/she will probably have died, plus plenty of party member owee as well.
To repeat: once hasted, you have the ABILITY to burn all your spells at 2ce the rate as usual. If this is necessary, then YES you are depleted for the rest of the day. If this is necessary, then YES you are alive. A non-hasted wizze would be DEAD.
I'm talking about the uber big battle. For small battles, one haste (3rd level spell) plus 4-5 other spells will probably do the trick. THat's 5-6 spells per small battle. You can do that 2-3 times a day as a wizard, more as a sorcerer (level 6+).
The way the rules are set up, there is no reason NOT to use haste. Oh, and I did mention the reasonably-cheap wand of Haste (50 charges) didn't I? Which will last about 3-4 character levels when used EVERY
Just to toss in my 2 cents cuz I know everyone is dying to hear it.
Haste as is is slightly powerful for a 3rd level spell. Not overpowering or unbalancing, just more annoying then anything else when you can predict almost every spellcasters first action. =op
It's too easily countered with just having to cast slow but then again, not every encounter that the PC's use haste, which will be most =op, will have either an NPC sor or wiz or someone who can use a wand of slow or scroll.
Overall it is just more of an annoyance factor then anything else. So with that in mind I'd say it really isn't overpowering, even though it is a tiny bit powerful.
Haste as is is slightly powerful for a 3rd level spell. Not overpowering or unbalancing, just more annoying then anything else when you can predict almost every spellcasters first action. =op
It's too easily countered with just having to cast slow but then again, not every encounter that the PC's use haste, which will be most =op, will have either an NPC sor or wiz or someone who can use a wand of slow or scroll.
Overall it is just more of an annoyance factor then anything else. So with that in mind I'd say it really isn't overpowering, even though it is a tiny bit powerful.
Grog, you are a genious
Finally someone gets it. If you are in a low combat campaign, then ALL spells and ALL spellcasters are broken and too powerful. If they go into every fight with all spells available, guess what? Disintegrate will be used Every fight. Is it broken? Time Stop will be used every fight. Is it broken?
Frankely, when enemies have access to Haste as well as the players, then things balance out.
Finally someone gets it. If you are in a low combat campaign, then ALL spells and ALL spellcasters are broken and too powerful. If they go into every fight with all spells available, guess what? Disintegrate will be used Every fight. Is it broken? Time Stop will be used every fight. Is it broken?
Frankely, when enemies have access to Haste as well as the players, then things balance out.
