Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

[Fenes 2]

Very few individual spells are so flexible as to be useable in multiple scenarios. Sorcerers get very few spells known. They tap out at 5 1st and 2nd, 4 3rd-5th, and 3 three the rest of the way. This is a TINY FRACTION of the available spells in the PHB. To say that you can build a spell list out of this that will enable you to be as flexible as a wizard, who can learn them ALL, is................

Well, let's just say that sounds a *bit* contrived.

You don't have to be as flexible as a wizard when he prepares his spells, you just have to have one spell in every situation that works. Then you cast that spell as often as you need to. It is not contrived to assume that a sorcerer with a smart choice of spells known wiull always have a spell he can use - be it a buff spell, a damage spell, or an utility spell.

To insinuate that every wizard will have the right amount of spells prepared for each and every situation is contrived. As far as my experience goes, he will prepare a couple of the stand-by spells (magic missile, fireball, Dispel magic, teleport etc.) since they will be sorely missed when needed and not prepared, perhaps doubling up on some of them "just in case more are needed". In reality, after preparing, a wizard is limited to the spells he prepared - which seldom offers him a greater choice than the sorcerer's spells known, but less tactical flexibility (It is hard to cast 3 walls of force when you have only prepared 1). You can circumvent some of this by leaving a few slots open, but try to get 10 minutes or so free time for preparing a knock when you need to open that door before the party gets crushed to death...

A few looks at the "sorcerer spell list" threads show that you can build a very effective character that will have a spell for almost any situation - and as a sorcerer, one spell is all you need, you can recast it ad nauseandum.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Unless that particular wizard happens to have Quicken Spell, and can cast 2 spells during his regular action. Then you've only given him a +50% increase in damage capacity. Right?

An extra partial action is an extra partial action. It doesn't vary in value because of class features.

What does a limited partial action have to do with class features? Limiting the extra partial action to a partial move or a physical attack has nothing to do with class features. Anyone can make a physical attack or move if they choose.

(BTW I forgot to mention that I do allow casters to use Haste's partial action to complete full-round spells or other actions.)

In the way of clarification, if the wizard has only Quicken spell it is not possible to generate two spells of max level that the wizard can cast. The quickened spell will always be max level -4. That means it is no longer possible for a spellcaster to do his theoretical maximum of +100% damage at negligable cost as with Haste because Quicken does not grant a partial action. It only grants a second spell as a free action that at best can be max spell level -4.

Tzarevitch

 

[Stalker0]

Very few individual spells are so flexible as to be useable in multiple scenarios. Sorcerers get very few spells known. They tap out at 5 1st and 2nd, 4 3rd-5th, and 3 three the rest of the way. This is a TINY FRACTION of the available spells in the PHB. To say that you can build a spell list out of this that will enable you to be as flexible as a wizard, who can learn them ALL, is................

Well, let's just say that sounds a *bit* contrived.

the idea is that a sorceror with metamagic feats and spontaneous casting can cover a situation preety well, even with a limited spell block. Often times much better, if the wizard doens't have a certain spell prepared, or a wand for it, well then he's plum out of luck isn't he?

But this argument isn't about wizards and sorcs, its about haste. And mulk, your stoking the flames pretty strongly there, we all get your point of view, no need to type angrily.


About the whole paper, rock thing, I think aura made my point for me. The idea that if you don't have paper, rock will win is not how every spell works. Many times you can not have a counter for something and still get through it. You will be at a disadvantage, but its not terrible.

However, haste is not one of these. A hasted person with no counter is a true terror to be reckoned with.

 

[Mulkhoran]

and as a sorcerer, one spell is all you need, you can recast it ad nauseandum.

I'm not snipping the rest of your post to ignore it, but it pretty much comes down to this one statement, doesn't it?

Individual spells are NOT that flexible. Wizards can learn *everything*. They don't necessarily have to prepare it, but with Scribe Scroll, they can have non-level-relevant spells ready at the drop of a hat.

Sorcerers are ok, but their strength lies in specialization, not in flexibility.

 

[Mulkhoran]

But this argument isn't about wizards and sorcs, its about haste. And mulk, your stoking the flames pretty strongly there, we all get your point of view, no need to type angrily.

You haven't seen me angry. And if you think there's a problem with the way I'm communicating my point of view, there's a link in the lower-right hand corner of every post that you can use to report it to a moderator. Feel free.

 

[Tzarevitch]

I would not consider Slow a weak spell. I have rarely used it in my games as a DM because it is, imho, a very powerful spell. Cast it on a couple melee fighters or meleeing monsters and poof goes their full attack routine, reducing their damage output to single attacks while standing still or charging.

Couple it with hit and run tactics or ranged attacks and you have one sorry party.

True. I should correct what I said. Slow isn't a weak spell, but it is a fairly rare spell. I rarely use it because most of my PCs bolster their saves. They don't fail saves too often unless I seriously max out their foes save DCs.

Tzarevitch

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

One countermeasure (Slow) is an exceptionally weak spell that is too high level IMHO and nearly useless beyond countering Haste. The second countermeasure has only a 50/50 shot of working assuming that you are of similar power level to the caster of the Haste spell.

And not too many non-adventuring creatures have it. I don't know one demon that knows the spell, for instance.

Or, let's use one of DnD's features; levels on creatures. Let's give every fourth bulette a black hat and a level of sorcerer, and a Wand of Slow.

I hope you realize that I'm being sarcastic.

 

[Bonedagger]

Posted by two
(Snip)

Try and make Polymorph Other the only spell in the game that allows alteration of a physical body. Then move it to 9th level.... It would probably still be popular. Then try and do something similar with fly, Dispel Magic, Major Image, Heal, Ressurection, Invisibility/See Invisibillity, Detect Magic, Hold Person, Dimension Door etc... Being among the few who have access to those spells would probably make a major difference if there was no real alternative for similar magics.




If you only look at a single encounter then haste can be nice for a spellcaster since it allows him to burn of his magic twice as fast but in the cause of a campaign it is often a question of when to save your magic. Or it should be IMO. It's the challenge that makes it fun.

 

[coyote6]

Well, this is going to sound a little insane, but:

Haste should probably be higher level. I play with it at 3rd, and so do the people I game with.

Just like we play with Magic Missile and Shield at 1st level. Mages generally suck

If haste had Range: Personal and Target: The character, I wouldn't think it's a problem.

But when the sorcerer (or wizard) would rather (because it's more effective) caste haste on her comrades than throw lightning bolt, fireball, or any other spell besides perhaps a single fly (on herself, to get out of the enemy's reach, or on the biggest baddest melee type PC, so they can close with a flying enemy), it bugs me.

Typical encounter: sorcerer casts haste on herself, then either fly or haste on someone else. Next round, she maybe throws another haste or just settles for an acid arrow and a magic missile.

Myself, I'd be happy if haste didn't include the +4 dodge bonus, or was like the d20 Modern version, or possibly even just had a slightly reduced (say, +2) dodge bonus.

Then again, I'd also reduce the penalty from slow.

 

[bret]

All I can say here is that I have NO idea what all that still, silent 4 to 5 times a round stuff you're talking about means. Sorcerers use metamagic feats like everyone else, only it takes a full round. But maybe that's not what you're referring to, I just can't tell.

You're welcome to your definition of flexibility. I'm just pointing out that sorcerers get very few spells known, and if your spells known are no good in situation X, then you're no good.

The differentiation he is making is between strategic flexibility (when you plan for something, you've got a lot of options to choose from) versus tactical flexibility (when you're in the field, you've got an ability to adapt to the current situation).

In my opinion, he is right.

The wizard has to choose ahead of time which spells will best serve him in an encounter. If he doesn't have the spell memorized or on a scroll, he can't use it. Unless he has a special magic item, he can't add a metamagic feat to a spell except when he memorizes it.

The sorcerer has to choose his spells known wisely, but can use those spells in any combination. Given the correct spells known and feats, if someone silences him, he can cast a silent Dispel Magic or silent Dimension Door. No worries about if he was planning to run into a bard or cleric that day, provided he has the feat he can apply it when needed. He can decide on the fly how to apportion his spells between the various spell slots.

The sorcerer has a greater ability to adapt as the day goes on but may not be using the best tool, while the wizard can have the exact right spell for a situation provided he anticipated the need.