Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

[Morgion]

As a player in a relatively low-fantasy setting, with no dungeon hacks Haste is too good, mind it, I cast it all the time myself, thats how I learned that it is too powerful.

Maybe it's a matter of campaign style, in our group, we rarely go dungeoncrawling, and at most have 3 encounters per day, so the hastely burning of spells, is rarely a problem for the two in our group that can cast it. If you couldn't cast spells I think it is balanced, otherwise I think 5th level is about right. I think to myself, every time I cast haste, would I do it if it was 5th level, and the answer is quite often YES!!!

So for my campaign i bumped it to 5th, and banned Imp Invisibility and knock, also the powerful transportation spells got bumped 2 levels or more, mostly because of campaign atmosphere....

Morgion

 

[Zaknafein]

Haste...

Vendui,

No I dont think haste is too powerful.... the reason being... you can easily have boots of speed which enables the person wearing the boots to be hasted 10 rds. per day... just my 2 cents...

-in honor zaknafein

 

[AuraSeer]

If Haste is a must-have offensive spell IYC, then Slow is a must-have defensive spell. One charge from a wand of Slow, at minimum caster level, will automatically dispel haste effects on 5 targets.

Even if one side has access to Mass Haste, they're using up a 6th-level slot to buff one target per level. An opponent of equivalent level can un-buff them all with one Slow, which only costs a third-level slot. Better yet, if you have a high enough save DC, hit them with Slow first; they're then reduced to partial actions, and they need to use up their hastes just to get back to normal speed.

In games where Haste is game-breakingly powerful, it's the fault of the DM who doesn't defend against it. The same thing can happen with Improved Invisibility (if NPCs never use sight magic), or Fly (if NPCs are stuck on the ground), or any number of other spells if the enemy are idiots.

 

[Happy Monkey]

And any spell/feat/item that everybody wants or must have is too good.

Not too sure if you are agreeing or sarcastic so a brief explanation.

It comes down to want v must have. Want, as I have seen it implies a choice between 2+ of cool stuff. Must have is no choice, it is too good.

Same can be said about heaps but haste caused too many problems in my group of friends, so I nerfed.

 

[Bonedagger]

Nothing wrong with Haste. It's just yet another reason why Dispel Magic should be a standard spell for any spellcaster of high enough level to cast it.

The spell Haste is not the problem... DMs who don't know how to deal with magic-users are.


Of course if your NPCs haven't heard or do not understand what Haste is, then you have a reason for them to be surprised by the spell. But if it is so commen as I hear many claim. Then it shouldn't take long before clever enemies of the PCs start hirering or buying some countermeasure.

 

[DonAdam]

Here's the test: raise it to 4th level. Is it still a super common spell? 5th? 6th? You're getting the idea.

I've found several ways to solve the problem of haste:
1) Yoink the d20 modern haste.
2) Only move actions with the partial action.
3) No AC bonus.
4) Halve the duration.
5) graduated haste: Extra move action only at 3rd level (lesser haste), partial action at 4th, partial action + AC bonus at 5th (greater haste).


If you do any of those, it's still a worthwhile 3rd level spell (for some of them, it's still a worthwhile 4th level spell). I'd love to see an "official" fix for haste.

 

[Happy Monkey]

No Auraseer, you assume the enemy have access to the appropriate magic in a timely manner, most don't unless you are deliberately trying to thwart your players, i.e. lame dm metagaming.

Classed foes (whom until I nerfed) would start the battle as you described, hasted, seeing invis, mirrored, flying, bla bla. Note: the combo's would vary but always haste. Ho-hum, standard boring.

My whole point is to make haste not have the "must have" status the official version enjoys.

 

[Spatzimaus]

When the entire party Delays until after the caster goes so that they get the Mass Haste, you know it's overpowered. Haste is the ultimate force multiplier, and smart parties know it. Casting twice as many attack spells per turn mean the enemy is dead twice as fast, which means the good guys took half as much damage. This is not a negligible change.

It's just too much of a "must have" spell. It's not limited like Fly, or Fireball, or whatever other 3rd-level spell you like; it's a targettable spell that every character can find useful in every situation. +4 AC that stacks, and the ability to cast another spell, make another attack, OR move? And, since it takes effect immediately, casting it on yourself costs no time.

Compare to the more limited versions:
Expeditious Retreat (Wiz 1): doubles movement, effectively like adding another move
Rapid Strikes (Wiz 2): adds an extra attack action
Schism (Psi 3): lets you cast an extra spell, self-only
Haste, to me, seems balanced at level 4 for Wizards, although I'd keep it at 3 for Bards. Likewise, Mass Haste would go to Wiz 7/Brd 6.

Slow isn't enough of a counter, and neither is Dispel Magic. Sure, it outperforms Haste, dispelling it from multiple people, but that requires every opponent to be capable of casting Slow. Against the horde of nonmagical enemies, Haste is insanely powerful. If the only way to balance Haste is to force the DM to include a Slow-casting NPC in every encounter, it's not balanced.

 

[mkletch]

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And any spell/feat/item that everybody wants or must have is too good.
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Not too sure if you are agreeing or sarcastic so a brief explanation.

Serious. I saw this in an early design article from one of the primary 3E designers, and have spent much of my free time today trying to track it down. IMO, it is a core philosophy behind any good game design.

It comes down to want v must have. Want, as I have seen it implies a choice between 2+ of cool stuff. Must have is no choice, it is too good.

Either want or must-have, if everyone does have, then there is something wrong. And I don't mean ultra basic stuff like enhancement bonuses to weapons or armor, I mean special abilities. Displacement is expensive enough (as an item) or short enough duration (as a spell) that it simply a good option, not a must-have or must-want. Haste is too good.

As for Slow as a counter, yeah, that would work. But is it really practical. Sure - maybe. If random brigand captains in your world have wands of slow, I want to play in your game. Dispel magic quickly becomes a greater dispel, and is of low enough level that the other, higher-level, non-must-have buffs protect it from an area dispel. When you use higher level spells to protect a low level spell from dispelling, it is too powerful.

-Fletch!

 

[Grog]

When the entire party Delays until after the caster goes so that they get the Mass Haste, you know it's overpowered. Haste is the ultimate force multiplier, and smart parties know it. Casting twice as many attack spells per turn mean the enemy is dead twice as fast, which means the good guys took half as much damage. This is not a negligible change.

But those attack spells still come out of the caster's maximum number of spells per day. So while Haste may turn the tide for a single battle, it's not going to be able to change the course of the entire adventure very much. If the players are in a dungeon, spellcasters are still going to have to husband their resources carefully - Haste doesn't change that.