Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

[Spatzimaus]

But those attack spells still come out of the caster's maximum number of spells per day. So while Haste may turn the tide for a single battle, it's not going to be able to change the course of the entire adventure very much.

I was going to answer this one before, when someone else said something similar, but I ran out of time, so here goes.

Let's oversimplify the situation and say that the DM is throwing 10 identical enemies at me over the course of a day, and I've decided to Disintegrate them individually. Presumably I have 10 slots of appropriate levels. Anyway, if they come at me 1 per hour, then Haste has no effect other than the AC, but in those cases I wouldn't cast it unless I had nothing else to do with my level 3 slots. If they come at me all at once, though, I take 5 rounds to kill them instead of 10. I take far less damage since it takes half as long, AND I have a higher AC. Either way, the only things I lost for Haste were some level 3 spell slots.

But, no matter how long it takes, it still took exactly 10 Disintegrates (not counting for resists, which isn't a time-based factor so affects all scenarios equally). I didn't use any more spells (other than the Haste itself, which is far lower in level than my attack spells). So, I didn't run out of my attack spells any more than I would have without the Haste.

And that's the key. For a given number of encounters, or a given number of enemies, you will use the same number of spells with or without the Haste, except for the Haste itself. If it takes two Fireballs to kill the bad guys, you'll use two Fireballs; Haste simply puts them both in the same round.
So, there are only two ways the spells/day thing works against you:
1> If the DM throws more enemies at you to compensate. That's metagaming, and it's bad.
2> If the player uses so many Hastes that it takes up a sizable fraction of his slots per day at spell levels he would otherwise use for key combat spells. If an encounter has a EL of 5 less than my level, I'm not wasting a Haste on it. And, fights that will last long enough for Haste to matter (let's say CR=level) only happen 2-3 times a day, usually, because any more than that depletes your party's other resources.

Mass Haste is simply the easiest way to see this. Equal-CR encounters without it can be horrendous, while the same encounters with it can be almost trivial.
At least, that's my experience.

 

[mkletch]

But those attack spells still come out of the caster's maximum number of spells per day. So while Haste may turn the tide for a single battle, it's not going to be able to change the course of the entire adventure very much. If the players are in a dungeon, spellcasters are still going to have to husband their resources carefully - Haste doesn't change that.

Unless the goal of the adventure is to shut down some Gauntlet-esque monster generator or uncontrolled gate to the lower planes, the inhabitants of a dungeon will also have fixed resources and numbers. The mass haste cheese is unnecessary except in large battles. One monster surrounded by 4-6 characters is simply dead, it's just a question of announcing the time of death for the death certificate.

If you have many epic battles per day, something is wrong (either with the settings, or with your information going into this meat-grinder). but usually parties will, enter, destroy, retreat, repeat. A couple instances of mass haste will go a long way, especially if the defenders are unfortunate enough to sound the alarm.

As for daily repertoire of spells, there are scrolls, staves, wands, potions, command items, etc. Plus, Spatzimaus did his math and gets a gold star. Double the spells in the same timeframe, but the same number of spells used either way.

-Fletch!

 

[Stalker0]

Hmm, well it looks like right now the results are about 50/50, but I haven't counted them.

For those who say haste is balanced because of dispel magic and slow, that's like saying polymorph is balanced because as a dm I just don't throw certain monsters at the party.

Anytime the abilities of a party forces me as the dm to resort to a few key tactics to have a decent combat, then something is wrong. Yes slow and dispel magic are excellent at hurting haste. Yes, if I as the dm had all of my badguys use slow and dispel magic haste would be no problem. And I as the dm love to be that predictable. I love to watch my players roll their eyes as yet another dispel magic takes effect. Because that's what problem spells do, it forces the dm to be predictable, and that's boring.

Alright my rant is over. I consider haste to be too strong.

 

[mkletch]

Had an idea for shutting down haste: antimagic. Somehow permanently hold several beholders and have them bathe the intended battlefield in the emanation of their primary eye. Beats slow or dispel any day. Toss in a horde (like hundreds) of grappling, disarming, tripping insane kobolds, and you've got a real party on your hands...

-Fletch!

 

[AuraSeer]

No Auraseer, you assume the enemy have access to the appropriate magic in a timely manner, most don't unless you are deliberately trying to thwart your players, i.e. lame dm metagaming.

I think you missed my point.

When I have access to buffing spell X, whatever that spell is, my party will be more powerful with it than without it. If my enemies do not cast spell X themselves, and they lack any way to remove spell X from my allies, then my side will have a significant advantage.

If Haste were as unbalancingly powerful as some assert, then everyone in the game world should be aware of it. Assuming it's a common tactic, everyone should know (and be prepared to use) countermeasures. This is just common sense.

Characters know about invisibility, so any party should be prepared to deal with it-- whether that's See Invisibility, or Glitterdust, or whatever. They know about flight magic, so a party should be prepared to deal with fliers-- whether by casting their own Fly spells, or simply using ranged weapons. Et cetera and so forth, for nearly every buff spell in the PHB. They also know about Haste, so they should probably carry a scroll or a wand of Slow, just in case. If anyone (PC or NPC) is unable to deal with all these tactics, they're asking to get spanked if their opponents do anything they're unprepared for.

Anyway, I don't think Haste is more unbalancing than any other buff spell. For fighter-types, it usually means one extra attack. For casters, it's an extra spell, but that depletes their store of magic at twice the rate. If you have so few combats that the spellcasters still don't ever run out of spells, then that's your real problem, and you need to put more pressure on the PCs.

 

[Grog]

Let's oversimplify the situation and say that the DM is throwing 10 identical enemies at me over the course of a day, and I've decided to Disintegrate them individually. Presumably I have 10 slots of appropriate levels. Anyway, if they come at me 1 per hour, then Haste has no effect other than the AC, but in those cases I wouldn't cast it unless I had nothing else to do with my level 3 slots. If they come at me all at once, though, I take 5 rounds to kill them instead of 10. I take far less damage since it takes half as long, AND I have a higher AC. Either way, the only things I lost for Haste were some level 3 spell slots.

So we're in agreement here - Haste has very little effect when encounters are spaced out. When players only have to worry about one big fight, that's when Haste becomes very powerful. But 3E isn't really designed with the play style of "big fight - rest - big fight - rest - big fight - rest" in mind. For one thing, that play style is incredibly weighted in favor of spellcasters, Haste or no Haste.

And something else to consider - if your 8th-10th level party is fighting several different groups of low CR monsters (say, ogres, for example) you may end up wishing that your wizard hadn't memorized so many Haste spells and had taken some more Fireballs instead.

 

[Shirt Guy John]

Not to piss anyone off, or to downplay the rules, but I have no problem with haste as it is. As with most spells, its broken if the characters make it broken.

I'm not a DM, but a player, and whatever you may say, it is not a "must have" spell for your survival, and even if it was, I don't think the "must have" criteria is that good of a balancing factor for the game as a whole. I mean, in our group, I have yet to see a fighter without weapon focus or a cleric without cure light wounds, and I doubt that either of those would ever be called overpowered.

It shouldn't be a must-have spell. If the players percieve it as such, then they're either recieving too hard of challenges, or they're overly focused on combat. If the game were combat focused, then i would say yes, haste would be essential.

I'd like to think that I and my DM are both adult enough to not try to munchkinize the whole game to the point where Haste is essential to anyone's survial.

Is it a good spell? Yes. Is it worth having? Most of the time, Hell yeah. Is it game breaking? Not any more than a lot of the d20 system can be if you work at it.

 

[Hejdun]

I think it's too powerful, but if I were to 'fix' it, I would up it's level considerably. Probably up to 6th or so, but also make it slightly more powerful. Something like a longer duration, perhaps slightly higher AC bonuses, etc. Mass Haste would have to be an 8th or 9th level spell, with same changes (increased duration, etc.)

 

[mkletch]

I think you missed my point.

No we just disagree...

When I have access to buffing spell X, whatever that spell is, my party will be more powerful with it than without it. If my enemies do not cast spell X themselves, and they lack any way to remove spell X from my allies, then my side will have a significant advantage.

If Haste were as unbalancingly powerful as some assert, then everyone in the game world should be aware of it. Assuming it's a common tactic, everyone should know (and be prepared to use) countermeasures. This is just common sense.

Characters know about invisibility, so any party should be prepared to deal with it-- whether that's See Invisibility, or Glitterdust, or whatever. They know about flight magic, so a party should be prepared to deal with fliers-- whether by casting their own Fly spells, or simply using ranged weapons. Et cetera and so forth, for nearly every buff spell in the PHB. They also know about Haste, so they should probably carry a scroll or a wand of Slow, just in case. If anyone (PC or NPC) is unable to deal with all these tactics, they're asking to get spanked if their opponents do anything they're unprepared for.

You obviously have not done the math. Do you realize that even a half-charged wand of slow is more than the entire equipment value for a 6th level NPC. To even be a viable piece of equipment, the NPC would have to be 13th-15th level. Now, if you sprinkle every group of foes with a 1st level sorcerer who has a wand of slow with 2 charges, then that is meta-DMing of the worst sort. Every NPC has to be a viable, believable NPC in his/her own right, or the game is a silly combat-fest that would be better suited for a bad RTS of CRPG.

So basically, every non-'boss' encounter will get spanked, and the final villain will die a horrible death when his major item, a half-assed wand of slow, fails to stop the party barbarian from separating his head from his body. THAT is a challenging adventure if I ever heard of one.

Or is every encounter to include a utility mage or cleric of party-equivalent level and equipment with only anti-buff spells, who tries frantically but unsuccessfully to stem the tide of rampaging adventurers. I'm sorry, but societies, nations and worlds do not orbit around the tactics of the 1-in-a-million being who is an adventurer.

This thread is leading to more and more ridiculous 'haste is the most balanced spell ever - how do you dare question it'. Time to ditch this one, methinks

-Fletch!

 

[Grog]

So basically, every non-'boss' encounter will get spanked,

Except that most parties won't have the resources to use Haste in every non-'boss' encounter.