Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

[Crothian]

I do not use haste imc. I am also not very fond of fly. My vision of a decent "standard" combat in D&D does not encompass hordes of flying improved invisible hasted combattants finishing each other in 1.5 rounds of dogfighting.

Haste is, imho, clearly overpowered - it roughly doubles a casters damage output while greatly enhancing his AC at the same time, and it comes at no cost - the caster does not lose an action, he has not to spend the first round casting haste instead of another spell - he can have his cake and eat it.
Especially for a sorcerer it is a must spell if you want the most bang for your buck, and a sorcerer can cast it as often as needed.

Try a few extended encounterrs along with multiple encounters over the course of a day. I've found that both of these really limit the use of Haste, as it's greatest drawback is lousy duration

 

[LostSoul]

I run a non-dungeon crawl game, so the spellcaster gets a lot of rest between battles (most of which are usually quite tough). He always casts Haste, and it makes him nearly twice as powerful. How do I know this? because when I throw many encounters at them over the course of a day, and he doesn't have any Hastes left, he doesn't make quite the same impression on the battlefield.

I think the question boils down to your game's style; in a dungeon crawl, it works; otherwise, it might be too powerful.

 

[mkletch]

Haste isn't more powerful that fly or fireball. Fly allows you to crush any ground based non-missile forces. Fireball kills 20 or more creatures in the time it took to kill 1 or 2. [...] These are all spells that are used forever after they are first acquired. [...] 3rd level is when spells start to get really good all around.

If you have a fireball kill 20 creatures instead of damaging a few, then those creatures would have been dead anyway, by any of a thousand horrible fates. 3rd level is the level where they hid all of the overpowered spells. After the 'refresh' for 3E, 4th and 5th level must have had a huge number of spells, and 3rd almost none, so they dropped a bunch of spells down to 3rd to fill it out.

I do not use haste imc. I am also not very fond of fly. My vision of a decent "standard" combat in D&D does not encompass hordes of flying improved invisible hasted combattants finishing each other in 1.5 rounds of dogfighting.

Yes, we also try to run a medieval european fantasy game, not Crouching Sorcerer Hidden Paladin, or Flying in the Skies with Dragons. It works ... most of the time.

-Fletch!

 

[Mulkhoran]

Well, this is going to sound a little insane, but:

Haste should probably be higher level. I play with it at 3rd, and so do the people I game with.

Just like we play with Magic Missile and Shield at 1st level. Mages generally suck, no matter what arguments you can launch about the improved invisible flying mage. No one else's effectiveness is completely dependent on their spellcasting ability, not even sorcerer. There are some spells available to them at lower levels that make them viable over the longer term, specifically Magic Missile and Haste.

How many of you have actually played a 3E mage? I have, from 3rd to 16th level so far. Spell slots are PRECIOUS. Believe it or not, I could rarely find space for more than one per day. You try to be ready for everything. And you have multiple encounters. Sometimes, I would end adventuring days with it still memorized, having saved it each encounter for "something more deadly that might come along".

The duration sucks. It's a one-encounter spell. I find it funny that people talk about how Boots of Haste aren't as good as the spell because they're only 10 rounds a day. A 5th level Wizard gets 5 rounds/day per spell slot. And every spell slot you dedicate to getting that extra partial action is a slot you don't have for other spells, and another spell to burn per round.

And don't give me that flak about scrolls/potions/items that are the wizards forte. We're talking about the SPELL, not some items that you MAY have the time/money/xp to make, and will cost you exhaustive amounts of time/money/xp if you want to craft them at a caster level that gives you a decent duration.

Never mind Slow, never mind it being countered, it just isn't that powerful. Especially in multiple-encounter days. It's an essential part of a Wizard's effectiveness.

 

[Fenes 2]

A wizard may have few slots. A sorcerer has no such problems, with more spell slots per levels, a lot more tactical flexibility, and the ability to use higher-level slots for lower level spells if needed.

Haste may be balanced with a wizard that has to prepare the individual spells, but with a sorcerer? I doubt it.

And that is with a standard dungeon crawl hack&slash game. In a game where combat is not an hourly or even daily occurance the power of spellcasters in a battle grows enormously. Add haste to that, and you get overpowered casters no matter how you turn it.

 

[Mulkhoran]

A wizard may have few slots. A sorcerer has no such problems, with more spell slots per levels, a lot more tactical flexibility, and the ability to use higher-level slots for lower level spells if needed.

Haste may be balanced with a wizard that has to prepare the individual spells, but with a sorcerer? I doubt it.

Sorcerers do NOT have more tactical flexibility. Flexibility is the one thing sorcerers are lacking above all else. They are one-trick ponies. Their Haste may be good, but that's a known spell taken up. And you don't get many of those.

And that is with a standard dungeon crawl hack&slash game. In a game where combat is not an hourly or even daily occurance the power of spellcasters in a battle grows enormously. Add haste to that, and you get overpowered casters no matter how you turn it.

I think my description of a multiple-encounter day includes just a BIT more than the "dungeon crawl hack&slash" definition.

But for the record, in context, that's the caveat to this entire thing. That's the default level of activity and action for 3E. Thus, Haste. If you modify that, other things will seem overpowered. It's all tied together.

 

[mkletch]

And don't give me that flak about scrolls/potions/items that are the wizards forte. We're talking about the SPELL, not some items that you MAY have the time/money/xp to make, and will cost you exhaustive amounts of time/money/xp if you want to craft them at a caster level that gives you a decent duration.

No, we are talking about haste as an effect that can be achieved many different ways within the game. How can you possibly argue that boots of speed and a potion of haste or a scroll of haste or a spell of haste are fundamentally different when they all give an extra partial action (the primary issue here, it would seem) and a +4 haste bonus to AC?

-Fletch!

 

[Mulkhoran]

No, we are talking about haste as an effect that can be achieved many different ways within the game. How can you possibly argue that boots of speed and a potion of haste or a scroll of haste or a spell of haste are fundamentally different when they all give an extra partial action (the primary issue here, it would seem) and a +4 haste bonus to AC?

-Fletch!

Wow. I actually *covered* that in the post you're quoting. Did you read all of it?

It's all about duration. Duration, duration, duration. The cost for a decent duration of Haste on any item directly increases that item's cost in a proportionate value that scales with character level.

 

[Fenes 2]

Sorcerers do NOT have more tactical flexibility. Flexibility is the one thing sorcerers are lacking above all else. They are one-trick ponies. Their Haste may be good, but that's a known spell taken up. And you don't get many of those.

In my book, the ability to decide on the fly whether a couple fireballs or a couple dispel magics are needed, the ability to cast that dispel magic silent when you are silenced, but normal if not, the ability to cast any one spell among your spells known as often as you have slots free is tactical flexibility.
IMO, the ability to choose from a great range of spells when preparing is strategic flexibility, the ability to cast on the fly is tactical flexibility.
I have yet to see the mage who, without some rod of metamagic, can throw 4 to 5 silent dispel magics in a round, or 4 to 5 silent still dispel magics when needed.
My bard can blow all her slots on healing when needed, or on buffs, or beef up her performance after a day without battle. My sorcerer can cast dispel magic until it works, or cast fireball as long as foes vulnerable to it are on the battlefield, or cast a couple wall of force.
That is flexibility for me, the ability to spend your slots as the situation demands it, even going to the extreme of using up all your slots for magic missile if that is the only thing that works, and the situation demands it.

 

[mkletch]

Wow. I actually *covered* that in the post you're quoting. Did you read all of it?

It's all about duration. Duration, duration, duration. The cost for a decent duration of Haste on any item directly increases that item's cost in a proportionate value that scales with character level.

But a slightly shorter duration does not negate the fact that they do the same thing. With haste in effect, combats do not last nearly as long. If you need more than 5 rounds of haste at a time, you can always reactivate with your last partial action. It's not like you are suddenly worse with a short duration haste that you would have been without haste at all.

-Fletch!