Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

  • Yes, something should be done to curb it's power.

    Votes: 149 47.8%
  • No, we use it as is, and it's just fine.

    Votes: 163 52.2%

Stalker0 said:
The number of encounters isn't necessarily important to balancing magicusers, just the wizards perception of them. If the wizard thinks the day may be filled with constant battle, he's probably going to conserve his spells. Else, he probably won't hold back.

Personally, I think haste makes it easier for a wizard to conserve their spells. You throw a couple of spells in the first few rounds, with a little help from that wand of haste, and then sit back.

As has been explained many times, how quickly you deal damage in the first few rounds can have an expotential effect on the overall damage the party takes. As a wizard, if after a few spells the fighters and whatnot can mop up, I don't need to keep casting. But if the fight gets hairy (because not enough damage was done in teh beginning), then I have to roll up my sleeves and start throwing fireballs.

I'd agree with both points here. The thing is the only way a wizard will expect multiple encounters per day is if you have them often enough that the wizard gets worried about it. (and once the wizards gets the vairous sleep aids so he canstart determining his own rest cycle to some degree it gets more challenging for the DM)

About the only time I see haste as a detriment becuase you burn trhough spells too quickly is when either the mage is flaunting his power, the mage is burning spells on buffs, defense, (the oh crap everyone is charmed i better bust dispels like i never busted dispels before, or someone invisible I'll throw see invis on you and you and you and you etc) or the wizard miss judges what is needed for the encounter, and overkills the situation.
 

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No, spellcasters in general are balanced around multiple encounters. Spellcasters have lots of nifty abilities that can only be used a few days per day. Non spellcasters tend to have somewhat less efficient attacks that can be used as often as they want.

Every magical action that a spell caster uses depletes a finite poll of resources. If spellcasters face multiple situations requiring magical action before they can recharge, then they must carefully allocate their spell power. Fireball these orcs or save it for the boss that might be 2 rooms away. The same issue of spell management can be important in a non dungeon setting - spells for sneaking places, gathering info, dealing with people, and with several in reserve for self defense.

On the other hand, if the caster needs to deal with only one bad situation, then spells/day aren't really an issue. A prepared wizard could easily go through a series of locked doors and trapped rooms, via teleport, ghostform, knock, fly, etc if that's all he has to do. Similarly, he can unload all his spells if there's one fight - the infamous fly, haste, Imp Invis attack sequence is rather draining and probably can't be used 4 times a day. If the caster can burn all his spells to unlock doors, then who needs a rogue?

Having only one resource using encounter per day is almost like giving a spell caster unlimited spells per day. Since, in a single encounter situation, spells per day isn't a constraint, using haste is a no brainer. In short, spellcasters are already dominant with only one major encounter per day and haste just allows them to exploit this dominant situation.
 

Haste is good, possibly for its level the best spell in the game, but overpowered, not in the least. I have a relatively high level Sorcerer in my campaign now that ALWAYS uses haste. Its tough, its abusive but it is NOT overpowering. Why? There are always counters and balances to everything. When you find something that has no counter and no balance EVER then you have something overpowered. That said Sorcerer also has the least amount of hit points in the group BY FAR. At his current level of 12ish, with the CR of what they are fighting, he can dish out a ton, slay many but if I so much as hit him twice in a good combat, he is done, simply. Cast haste on the fighter and he is a beating war machine of overpowered death? Not likely, he still has to make will saves which are not always so good. As the DM, dont change the rules if you don't have to, just adjust the game to fit well within those rules. Sure, it doesn't sound right to have every encounter based upon HASTE where I ensure the giant will get to hit the Sorcerer as a result of him/her casting haste, and I can charm or dominate the fighter just as he receives haste and I can have a wizard in the back with a readied slow every time but there are always ways around it. The bottom line is consistency. Can you say that every single time, for every single encounter in the game HASTE made the difference, or even the largest difference. Sure, the Sorcerer may unload a fury like no other and slaughter encounter after encounter JUST because of haste BUT what about the encounters when all I do is focus on charming the fighter. If he has haste then he is going to beat the snot out of the rest that much faster. The common argument might be "You have to specifically design an encounter just to offset the problems that haste can cause". Well in a way, yes you do, but that should not single out haste because in a way, everything the DM does should be designed with that in mind. Sometimes I need a specific ANTI-fighter encounter filled with less melee and lots of will save casting ranged freaks. Sometimes I need brutal high hit point, high damage giants to run around trying to one shot kill the caster. Other times I need to simply create very intelligent encounters to single out the cleric to deal with his/her abusive spontaneous casting. Fixed or not, it is a matter of consistency and 2 very simple rules.

Rule 1. Gameplay takes precedence - It doesn't matter what player A says vs. player B and what the DM says againts player C. It doesn't matter what this book says or that book says, put it in game and if it works well then run with it as is. It CANNOT be broken if you can think of any single situation in which it does not determine the outcome of the battle. I can come up with many situations that could and would sound broken if not for a great DM counter.

Rule 2. The DM does not ALWAYS have to be fair just consistent.

Remember also, the players are always at a HUGE disadvantage. Don't take away what they can do. The more you limit to the players the worse off it is because there is always one constant. PCs run out and character sheets can be made and remade only so many times. The NPCs and DMs critters are endless and never run out. Eventually no matter what character is to rough, what spell is to strong in an intelligent players mind and what PC group comes up with what sort of "cheese", the DM can and will find a way to put all in its place. Again I state, you dont always have to be fair, just consistent. My players love me for it because it gives them a sense of respect and balance in the game and they know that they can have a freedom to create and play what they want without fear of nerf because I can and will always find a way.


Its a long one, but you seriously need to think about it before you cry broken, overpowered or nerf.
 

Creatix said:
Haste is good, possibly for its level the best spell in the game, but overpowered, not in the least. I have a relatively high level Sorcerer in my campaign now that ALWAYS uses haste.

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Its a long one, but you seriously need to think about it before you cry broken, overpowered or nerf.

But of course, you WOULD say that, wouldn't you?


Hong "channeling Mandy Rice-Davies" Ooi
 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHY??!?!?!?!?!?! WHY??

It was dead! LOOOOOOONG dead! 19 days dead! Why why why WHY, Creatix, did you ressurect this insanity..............

All I wanted for christmas was for this thread to die.......*sniffle*..........


:o :o :o Now the suffering will begin all over again. :o :o :o
 

Its simple. I just read the post for the very first time and I had an opinion on it.


I guess you dont really have to reply or post anything to my response in response but then again im sure if you don't post then you might be very afraid of me so perhaps you should mention something about it somewhere at least for a little bit


don't ya think?
 

Just to clean up some myths:
-
Wizards are the dominating class in D&D and especialy in FR.
Haha, yeah if you let them be then it is quite possible, but you can say that to any class if you let them be.
Truth is that in a fair game, managed by a competent DM with equal PC's made with the Piont buy System, Wizards are NOT the dominating class. Fighters and Divine Casters are. Wizards who are not at least in the higher mid levels are highly screwed when it gets hairy, not to say incompetent to cope with nearly 90% of the things you can throw at them (not just monsters). Haste or not they are just too weak and their choices are too limited.
In FR spellcasters are just more common as in other campaigns but not really that more potent. Even the most powerful PrC's do have some serious drawbacks built in. (like the Red Wiz)
In 3e Wizards are doomed to stay in the last ranks or they will get crushed, even more than in 2e were wizard classes did RULE the system.
-
Haste or not there is nothing more heart warming then to see the wizard players sweat tears and blood knowing the enemy fighter or cleric or monster npc with his adamantine smackstick comming at them with that crunchy antimagic shell on. :)
 

Yeah, Antimagic Field is quite some equalizer there...

But I must disagree, since Wizards (and Clerics) most definitely ARE the dominating class in high level D&D (much like Fighters and Barbarians are quite dominant in low level D&D).

Sure you can get them into trouble as much as anyone else, and with a good DM this is rarely a problem, but Wizards have it MUCH easier in almost all situations compared to... say... Fighters.

Anyways... we use Haste pretty much as is, with one little change only... The spell duration starts with your next action, so you do not get the benefit right away.

This way you still have to think before activiting Haste, because you will have to spend the action for that round and do not regain it immediately.

Works pretty good.

Bye
Thanee
 

Creatix said:
I guess you dont really have to reply or post anything to my response in response but then again im sure if you don't post then you might be very afraid of me so perhaps you should mention something about it somewhere at least for a little bit


don't ya think?



While my translator is able to decipher your message here, don't you think posting in english instead of gibberish would be better? The original post was flippant, but I guess the humor didn't come across. Oh well.

And I've already said more than enough about how I feel about Haste in this thread, thank you.
 

Mulkhoran said:
And I've already said more than enough about how I feel about Haste in this thread, thank you.

Yeah, but you know how it is... you have to keep repeating yourself unto infinity for those who only bother to read the first post ;)
 

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