Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

[Lord Pendragon]

Haste

I played in a campaign for over a year. My fighter/mage took Haste as one of his first learned 3rd-level spells. He used it a lot. It didn't break the game.

I can't speak for anyone else's game, but until I see it actually ruin the fun, my vote goes to "fine as is."

 

[Wyckedemus]

I think haste should be lessened in power

Mainly because of several experiences I've encountered.

1) Bad guys had haste. Good guys did not.
The bad guys wiped the floor with the good guys. I had to come up with an excuse to avoid a TPK.

2) Good guys had haste. Really tough bad guys did not.
The good guys beat a really tough encounter way too fast. It was as if there was no challenge. If there had not been a haste spell, the party would still most likely have won, but they would have been clawing their way to victory and hurting bad. The PC's basically got twice as many actions as the baddies. The players cheered at first, but then dismayed on how anticlimactic the encounter was. (it was a secondary boss fight, btw.)

3) Wizard had haste spell for a mage duel. Opposing wizard did not.
Guess who had no chance...

Another way to look at the power level of an ability is like so...

Consider two opponents. They are the same class and level with the same ability scores. They have all the same options for creation, with one difference. Give one of the opponents access to the ability in question. The other does not get it. Then let them go at it.

In this situation, haste-boy and time-stop-man are FAR more efficient and powerful than their opponent. Very few other spells can boast the same benefit. Not shield, not dispel magic, not disintegrate. Not harm. Through the use of the rest of their powers, there is a way around the vast majority of tactics. Not all are the most efficient, but there are ways around them.

You can teleport out of a force cage. You can cast spell resistance to try and prevent harm from waxing you. If they can fly, you can summon flyers or shoot 'em with ranged effects. If they are Imp Invis, then cast blindsight.

In order to dispel haste, you have to make a caster check. Roughly a 50% chance to succeed. And you HAVE to be within medium range AND be able to target them.

In order to automatically cancel a haste effect with the slow spell, you have to be within CLOSE range and be able to TARGET the hasted inividual. You have the same problem with countering haste with slow. You have to be within close range. Most buffers try not to be that close when they decide to hasten the killing factor. This is all very hard to do against those damn Imp Invis, Hasted, Flying bassturds.

There is no defense against these spells beyond enhancing yourself with the same spell and striking as much and as fast as you can first.

Any ability whose only checks and balances (in the combat system) are the exact same ability is too powerful. It REQUIRES the game to take that tempo if you are one of the people who say "If there is one tactic superior to all others, then any person with access to said tactic would use it just to keep competetive and alive in their field. It makes no sense NOT to do it. If you don't have it, then you are half as effective as your opposition."

I DM'd a player who ran an arcane spellcaster in my home game who strongly felt this way. He could not comprehend why Boccob's Blessed Books were not status quo for ALL wizards 5th lvl and higher in the ENTIRE game world. If you ran the numbers then every one of these smart wizards should have known of their efficiency and benefitted from them. Brooch's of shielding wer also big on his list. Haste was TOP on his list. Some people believe thet "If you do not lead a combat with haste, then either it's not a tough combat in any way, shape or form OR you are a substandard spellcaster for using inefficient tactics."

If haste did not allow multiple spells per round then the accusation or opinion that a particular DM's encounter pacing was wrong could not be voiced. Someone belittled another DM's ability to challenge his group because ONE spell can change the entire face of combat. This spell drastically affects the tempo of an adventure and the challenge that an encounter provides. ONE SPELL.

I vote for haste to provide an extra Move-Equivalent action, +2 dodge or haste bonus to AC (.. either type, it's semantics), and +10 to your movement rate.

I would also change Expeditious retreat to say +20 to speed at 1st level, +30 to speed at 5th level, and +40 to speed at 10th level. It would also give you the RUN feat. (The spell is for running away! So Run! hee hee hee) It would only work for natural movement modes. (I would get rid of any instance where a magical effect multiplies your movement rate.)

Have fun

 

[Wyckedemus]

Possible answer to haste lovers

How about a 5th level spell called Mage Haste that gives you a +4 dodge bonus to your AC and an extra partial action per round that must be used to cast a spell, use a spell like ability, or activate a magic item? Eh? Eh?

...wannabe using haste as is at 3rd level (which means I KNOW it's broken)

I will not submit. Haste is a broken shaft.

> ; ) ~

 

[nameless]

I'm in the "Haste is fine" camp. Sure there are a bunch of broken spells, but any organic world will adapt to those spells. I speak mainly of Polymorph Other, Haste, and Scry, but some of the higher level ones are around too, like Simulacrum.

Ultimately, haste is not enough to turn an encounter on its own merits. It takes a spell-slot to cast, and is subject to the same dispel that most competent mage-killers will employ. If you're not a competent mage-killer, then what do you expect? Likewise for Polymorph Other (with a permanent duration) into a monstrous humanoid like a Hag, a Troll, or a Sprite. Scry is the worst offender of the bunch (but that's a rant for another day), and is almost impossible to defend against. Eventually, the scrier will track you down and make your life miserable.

Wizards are powerful, but only when played intelligently. They get a big toolbox, but not a lot of tools. Haste is basically a letting them use more tools at once, but they still have less than everyone else. Besides that, its easily available to everyone, and equally effective for everyone. It's all part of the ramping of power at higher and higher levels. I find Fly to be a bigger disruption in my game than Haste any day.

-nameless

 

[Creatix]

It has nothing to do with reading this post or that post. Its a subject I read for the first time and simply posted an opinion about it. I dont care when it was started or who wrote it and when.

Bottom line is if as a player you think haste is to powerful and a major crutch then you may just suck, if you think haste is to powerful as a DM then maybe you just suck.

It's not to powerful and thats a fact!

 

[Destil]

I've increased the casting time on haste to 1 full round, and left it alone other than that. Works fine for me.

 

[WizarDru]

It has nothing to do with reading this post or that post. Its a subject I read for the first time and simply posted an opinion about it. I dont care when it was started or who wrote it and when.

Actually, it has more to do with the fact that you ignored seven pages of debate. You stated an opinion, which is fine, but ignored the counter-arguments that had already been offered to the examples you gave, prior to your actually giving them.

It CANNOT be broken if you can think of any single situation in which it does not determine the outcome of the battle. I can come up with many situations that could and would sound broken if not for a great DM counter.

Obviously, we have different definitions of 'broken', then. Regardless of my position on the Haste spell, your rule of thumb here doesn't even remotely work for me. I also think you've missed the point that some posters are discussing, specifically this: If a DM needs to consider a specific factor in EVERY encounter in which the players invovle themselves, regardless of balance, that strikes them as a cumbersome metagaming excercise that tends to lead to a mind-numbing 'sameness' about every encounter.

I agree with several of your points, particularly about not taking player's powers away. That said, I worry more about the effects of haste and mass haste on my players than when the party wizard uses Meteor Swarm. That, in and of itself, says something about the spell, to me.

A little constructive criticism, as well: a little more punctuation and some paragraph breaks go a long way to making your text more readable. YMMV.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Personally I have no problem with the haste spell. Then again somewhere in the DMG (I believe in the section that talks about maing your own spells) it states, "If a spell is so good that you can't imagine a spellcaster not wanting to take this spell it is porably too good." Or something along those lines.

I believe haste is one of many of these spells that you can't imagine a spellcaster not wanting (time stop, haste, greater dispel magic, magic missle, scry, teleport, fly etc). But I see no problem with that since these spells are a spell casters bread and butter.

 

[Creatix]

Well said Wizardru

Most of my posts eventually reach the point of mockery to some and unconcern for aesthetics and english structure. I am QUITE confident in my writing ability therefore I shall leave that at that. I was simply baffled when post after post of my main comment seemed to indicate that "If you had read all the previous posts, then you would not need to post something in return."

I do not quite understand this logic, I have read EVERY single post on haste on this subject, from page 1 to page 6 and regardless of what is argued and counter-argued I still don't understand why posting a long reply and/or response has anything to do with ignoring what was once said.

With that in mind, rather than EVER getting frustrated and arguing via posts I simply succumb to the masses and post gibberish, mockery and usually uninsightful text. In the end I reach my goal and that is, I weed out the idiots, baffle and confuse the less than wise and end up seperating those with honest value to what I am saying and those that "think" they understand something.

You are in the good pile Wizardru. Congrats!

 

[hong]

You are in the good pile Wizardru. Congrats!

Hee hee. You're new here, aren't you?


Hong "posting gibberish, mockery and usually uninsightful text" Ooi