Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

[Lela]

Unless you as a DM prefer ignorant, incompetent oponents to challange your PCs, having them prepare for the best possible fight is not metagaming, its being a good DM.

Hay, some DM's like that.

I am not sure if the 'if everyone uses it, it must be too powerful' argument is a valid point or not.

I agree. Fireball is used by every party I've ever seen (unless you count computer RPGs, it's hard to run there). Maximised, Empowerd, both. We've seen it all with that one. But it isn't overpowered.

Now don't think that I'm comparing Fireball and Haste here. I'm just questioning the idea that if everybody wants something it must be overpowered.

 

[zorlag]

Haste

Not necessesarily, but Haste is just as useful at level 5 or 20, while Fireball is powerful at 5-10 and after that starts losing it's power (without metamagic). And I do think that if your opponent has haste, you don't only want it too, you need it to survive that encounter...

Z.

 

[AEtherfyre]

Personally, I'd complain about a different 3rd level spell before I'd complain about Haste. Protection from Elements. Sure, it doesn't allow you to double your output in spells - but it will keep you intact to cast them, vs. any enemy that uses high - power elemental attacks - and these attacks aren't always minor. The CR 7 pyrohydra could do 18d6 fire damage in a round, for instance, but a 5th level casting of ProtElements negates it entirely most of the time.

Now, don't mistake me; I don't think Protection from Elements is overpowered. I do think it's powerful. It gives access to an ability that you normally wouldn't have - near immunity to an element. It's very nearly an absolute defence. The reason it's third level is because the designers of the game mostly agreed that that sort of protection is appropriate to a 5th or higher level party. I think the same goes for Haste.

Haste shows up at 5th level. What it does for the mage is allow - for a short period of time - a doubling of attack rate. At 6th level, Fighter-types get something very similar - an extra attack. It's less likely to hit than their first, and it can't be used in every situation - but it's always available, not just for 1rd/level, and fighters don't run out of spells/day. Doesn't seem all that bad to me, at this point. Yeah, later on Haste lasts longer, mages have more spells, and more powerful spells; but other classes have more attacks, more HP, and better defences than they had before, too.

As for the frequency of use - in any situation where an elemental - using Big Bad might show up, namely anywhere there's a wizard, a dragon, or a demon, or anything else that can hammer out powerful magic, ProtElements is pretty much required - at least for the party members without all the HP of a fighter of barbarian, anyway. The same can be said for just about any defensive buff in the game. Endurance, anyone? And what about the Cure spells? Are they overpowered because they see so much use, or is it because they are the best way to access a particular ability - one which shows up at low levels because it is of appropriate power in low level gameplay?

And that is my opinion.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Haste is only overpowered because of the other spells you can cast. There would be very few complaints if any about Haste if it didn't allow spellcasters to kick some ass.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Posted by Shard

The problem is when you limit it to the big fights, your reasoning would knock out virtually every buff in the game. What big fight is entered without stat buffs, any fighting cleric who gets the chance will cast divne power, or divine might, the very nature of buffs make you more effective, so they will always be cast for a big fight. The short duraiton ones(rounds or minutes)are usually a bit more powerful and therefore are almost always cast at the begining of any big fight. Basically my point is if you don't look at all fight encoutners,and instead just look at the big ones as your point of refernce to see if certain spells are overcast and therefore too good virtually every buff spell in the game that isn't superceeded by a beter version will be too good, and the ones that are superceeded will be too good until they are superceeded.

Well, I focused on the larger fights because the smaller ones generally don't call for Buff spells of any sort. What bothers me most about Haste is that it never seems to decrease in utility, regardless of what is being fought. Part of that is a result of the way it works. As a Self Buff, there is no saving throw or spell resistance to factor in, your opponents cannot stop it. Unlike a damage buff, high HP or damage reduction cannot dull it. Since it does not effect attack rolls, a high AC can not reduce its effectiveness. And since it affects a players ability to act, its power is less effected by its spell level, and more effected by the abilities of the one who is benefiting from it.

Haste does not merely Add power to someone, it Multiplies power. And the stronger a character is, the more powerful Haste becomes. If anyone can convince me that there is another PHB Offensive Buff spell of 5th level or less that is more useful to cast accross all circumstances and for all characters, then I would like to hear it.

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[WizarDru]

Haste does not merely Add power to someone, it Multiplies power. And the stronger a character is, the more powerful Haste becomes. If anyone can convince me that there is another PHB Offensive Buff spell of 5th level or less that is more useful to cast accross all circumstances and for all characters, then I would like to hear it.

Isn't the term 'offensive buff' something of an oxymoron?

Some spells never decrease in efficiency. Shield and Expeditious Retreat, for example, are as useful at 20th level as 1st, although you may find items to duplicate the effect.

And while I'm still not sure how I feel about Haste, asking someone to find a spell that you consider to be more broken to prove that Haste isn't doesn't sound like much of a challenge worth taking.

 

[WizarDru]

bla, 4 rounds? What the hell are you talkig about, certainly not a balanced D&D game combat. I have never played any fight that went on under 12 rounds. (Your group seems to play d&d like it was Diablo 2 or something like that.)
Also the warmup time is 2 rounds not 3...I stated that 3 is too much. Also it would be possibly to allow Haste to be casted as a free action like the spell enhancer so you could at least cast another spell the same round you cast Haste, thus losing the initial round, so the wait is actually only one round after the casting.
1 round warmup would be enough in non powergaming campaigns.

Well, ignoring the odd ad hominem attack, I should point out that I recommended making haste a full-round action a while ago in this very thread (which I'm sure you read all of before you starting slinging stones).

I must admit, if you normally have 12+ round combats, I would believe you to be in the minority, not the majority. I also expect that you haven't run combats in the higher levels, where the insta-death spells are flying fast and furious. The main contention some seem to have is that haste granting an additional partial action makes wizards too powerful (a contention I disagree with). My issue with it is that it provides too many benefits from a single spell with no real downside, and it scales continually.

If you wish to judge for yourself how 'diablo 2' our game is, you're welcome to go here: WizarDru's Story Hour: The Savage Sword of Meepo!

 

[WizarDru]

Feel free to GO HERE to join the poll about the average length of combats in your games.

Edit: Well, it seems that I was right, at least about the average length of combat. 5-6 rounds seems to be the norm, and I would fit right in there, since I wasn't counting the suprise round in that calculation (but probably should have).

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Isn't the term 'offensive buff' something of an oxymoron?

Not really. Take StoneSkin for example. It does not help you kill other things, it simply makes you harder to kill.

Some spells never decrease in efficiency. Shield and Expeditious Retreat, for example, are as useful at 20th level as 1st, although you may find items to duplicate the effect.

True enough. But Haste actually increases in usefulness. And while many other spells do the same, they tend to either have a cap (Fireball at 10d6), or are much higher in level.

And while I'm still not sure how I feel about Haste, asking someone to find a spell that you consider to be more broken to prove that Haste isn't doesn't sound like much of a challenge worth taking.

Actually, that is not quite my intent, though I can see how my earlier statement could have been interpreted that way. It simply seems to me that there are no other spells of comparable level with comparable power / utility. So either I am missing something, or Haste is dramatically more powerful then any of the comparable PHB spells.

I just think that the spell is overpowered at 3rd level, not fundamentally broken.

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[LuYangShih]

This was a great debate. In fact it's interesting to see the opinions on Haste shortly before the revised rules came out.