Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

  • Yes, something should be done to curb it's power.

    Votes: 149 47.8%
  • No, we use it as is, and it's just fine.

    Votes: 163 52.2%

List as many books as you can Hong that are looked upon as Fantasy books, not sci fi mind you, but true ancient world fantasy that do not have a powerful wizard-type as a powerful figure for good or evil in the story, and lets compare the percentages.

I believe I am not too far off. I also believe I listed a great many of the most often read fantasy books in the western world, though I believe if I listed fantasy stories from Asian, Latin, and African culture, I might see a similar trend.
 
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Celtavian said:
List as many books as you can Hong that are looked upon as Fantasy books, not sci fi mind you, but true ancient world fantasy that do not have a powerful wizard-type as a powerful figure for good or evil in the story, and lets compare the percentages.

"Good or evil" now, huh? It might have escaped your attention that 3E makes a firm distinction between roles for protagonists (the good guys) and adversaries (the bad guys).

What you're effectively saying is that because Sauron is an uber-badass, this means wizards in D&D can also be uber-badasses. All it means is that _demons and demigods_ can be uber-badasses. Whether "demigod" is an appropriate role for a PC to play is something else entirely.

As for someone like Gandalf, see my earlier comment on facilitators. Just because you can fend off a balrog doesn't mean you can upstage everyone else in the story.
 

Re: Re: Re: Re

hong said:


Now I'm confused. What am I wrong about?



hong said:
You are fighting the system in that everyone else wants magic users toned down, but you don't. The philosophy that wizards rule is 1E through and through, and contrary to what most 3E players are after.


"Everyone". That's all. I'm not really debating here, but when you say "everyone", you trigger the same incredulous response that I had so long ago that caused *me* to post this poll.

Everyone's a lot of people. I disagree with that. I absolutely, positively refuse to argue anything about this, I just don't think everyone wants magic users toned down.


As a side note, for how I feel about this thread, please note the following Bob the Angry Flower Cartoon:

http://angryflower.com/damnth.gif

And replace "fashion" with "thread". Ah, Bob :D
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re

Mulkhoran said:

"Everyone". That's all. I'm not really debating here, but when you say "everyone", you trigger the same incredulous response that I had so long ago that caused *me* to post this poll.

Everyone's a lot of people. I disagree with that. I absolutely, positively refuse to argue anything about this, I just don't think everyone wants magic users toned down.

Okay, "everyone bar an insignificant yet loud minority which can be safely ignored for all practical purposes".

Happy now? :cool:
 

hong said:


Okay, "everyone bar an insignificant yet loud minority which can be safely ignored for all practical purposes".

Happy now? :cool:

Not at all. :cool:

But I'm not a stone-cold lunatic, and *refuse* to advocate the posting of a poll. :p

[Kahn] but you *task* me...... [/Kahn]
 

Today is a strange day. For the second time, I must agree with hong, and this time fairly strongly. Perhaps the solar radiation on my planet has shifted in wavelength. :cool:

As for all of the "literature" referenced (and I do not consider anything by Weis and Hickman to be elevated to the level of "literature"), there is one basic but profound fault that I fear Celtavian has in converting those stories/concepts to 3E: character level.

* Yes, Gandalf is more powerful than Samwise, because Gandalf is effectively a celestial or half-celestial, with many levels of spellcasting and non-spellcasting classes. Samwise is a Commoner 2, at best, at the start of the story. Sauron is not even a spellcaster - frankly there are almost no "spells" except for a couple flashes of light on Gandalf's part, in any of Tolkien's writing, either that he published or his son.

*Yes, Allanon is more powerful than Shea Ohmsford, because Allanon is probably close to epic levels, and Shea is a Commoner 2 at best.

*Yes, Merlin is more powerful than King Arthur (as an individual), because Merlin is Merlin, the definition of an epic spellcaster, and King Arthur is only a high level fighter or paladin, maybe even low epic.

So, if you assume that all of the characters in the book are of the same level (like the typical D&D party), then yes, the spellcasters are more powerful because of their class. But clearly, the balanced party is only a figment of the RPG genre, not the fantasy literature genre.

What does this have to do with Haste? Not a dang thing. If the poll about spellcasting archetypes won't work, perhaps we need a new poll about haste to kick things off again? :)

-Fletch!
 


mkletch said:
Today is a strange day. For the second time, I must agree with hong, and this time fairly strongly. Perhaps the solar radiation on my planet has shifted in wavelength. :cool:

The possibility can't be excluded that the solar radiation that's shifted in wavelength is mine.... :D
 

mkletch said:
Today is a strange day. For the second time, I must agree with hong, and this time fairly strongly. Perhaps the solar radiation on my planet has shifted in wavelength. :cool:

As for all of the "literature" referenced (and I do not consider anything by Weis and Hickman to be elevated to the level of "literature"), there is one basic but profound fault that I fear Celtavian has in converting those stories/concepts to 3E: character level.

* Yes, Gandalf is more powerful than Samwise, because Gandalf is effectively a celestial or half-celestial, with many levels of spellcasting and non-spellcasting classes. Samwise is a Commoner 2, at best, at the start of the story. Sauron is not even a spellcaster - frankly there are almost no "spells" except for a couple flashes of light on Gandalf's part, in any of Tolkien's writing, either that he published or his son.

*Yes, Allanon is more powerful than Shea Ohmsford, because Allanon is probably close to epic levels, and Shea is a Commoner 2 at best.

*Yes, Merlin is more powerful than King Arthur (as an individual), because Merlin is Merlin, the definition of an epic spellcaster, and King Arthur is only a high level fighter or paladin, maybe even low epic.

So, if you assume that all of the characters in the book are of the same level (like the typical D&D party), then yes, the spellcasters are more powerful because of their class. But clearly, the balanced party is only a figment of the RPG genre, not the fantasy literature genre.

What does this have to do with Haste? Not a dang thing. If the poll about spellcasting archetypes won't work, perhaps we need a new poll about haste to kick things off again? :)

-Fletch!

Now that is one of the best arguments against the "Wizards should be more powerful than anyone else since my favourite book says so" point.
 

Hasn't been a lot of new arguements on this thread in a while.

The thing that somewhat surprises me is how evenly the votes are split between those who think it is two powerful and those who don't. If the game were still in playtest and I got that type of response, as a game designer I would certainly review the spell carefully before release.

As it is, the spell is part of the game now. Although D20 Modern has toned that and a couple of other spells down, I don't expect that most gamers will change the way it is done.

I would be very surprised if a large percentage of those who voted found any arguments here that changed their opinions of the spell.
 

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