Do you use "evil" races?

I agree with what the above poster, SHARK, wrote. I do not think humanoid races are “inherently” evil like demons, devils, certain dragons, etc. However, I believe the culture of these races makes them come across as evil to our 21st century morals – raised to be aggressive with only the strong surviving, kill the weak, other races are inferior and should either be enslaved or killed, etc. Hobgoblins may be organized and dictatorial, while orcs are more much more chaotic. Resources are to be used to make war and destroy the enemy. A non evil orc or hobgoblin is rare, a good one is rarer still – a once every few campaigns sort of thing.

Same with dwarves and elves. Elves are taught freedom and respect for nature, while dwarves are taught strong family and clan values and to respect the earth. Sure, there can be evil elves and dwarves, but they are exceptions I remember an evil elf in a campaign back in 98-99. The elves and humans were at war, when his daughter, the princess, fell in love with a human male and became pregnant by this human… the enraged father was then easy prey for the whisperings of the evil human mage – think Wormtongue – and fell into deep twisted evil ways.
 

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Faraer said:
I think the tendency to reduce fantasy to realist fiction just set in an alternative, realistic world is terrible. Valuing characters by how they differ from the archetype, morally relativist stories about good goblins... that's not fantasy, it's just mimetic fiction in fantasyland drag. It's the very metaphysical thinning Tolkien railed and worked against. Evil is actual, like cement, and necessarily so much more so in fiction.
Yes and no. The alternative could also be reducing fantasy to some kind of morality play, which Tolkien also railed and worked against. And evil doesn't have to be any less real just because it's not racially ingrained.

Personally, I like some elements of the realist fiction, although I also go in for the absolute morality camp. Then again, I'm like that in real life, but that's hardly an appropriate tangent to explore.
 

I have a clear distinction between Damned and Free races. PC races are Free, as are Kobolds, Orcs, Ogres, and many others. Members of these races make a choice whether to be good, evil or neutral. IMC I play Orcs just like Klingons: warlike, violent and honorable to a fault.

Then there are the Damned races. These races are tainted by demonic forces: typically worship, but also heredity.

Damned races include:
- Goblinoids (demon-twisted Fey)
- Gnolls (former Free humanoids, twisted into hyena-form by a dark ritual)

-- Nifft
 


There's a spectrum from the most metaphysically heightened categories, like angels and demons, to humankind in the middle who's assumed capable of great good and evil individually. Humanoid races are symbolic creatures, but the thinning tendency is to reduce them to sciencefictional aliens and/or odd-looking humans. Any given D&Dish world will have a different distribution of races/creatures/species along this spectrum, and any given instance is bound to have the symbolic function in concert or parallel with the realistic function -- the problem is when people don't understand the symbolic function and instead valorize realism as a simulationist absolute good. It is certainly an error to think that because real-life 'races' of humans aren't inherently good or evil, fantastic fictional creatures shouldn't be.
 

I have sort of a simulationist bent.

Cultures among humans vary in ways that some parts of which, we, from our admittedly biased modern perspective*, would call evil.

* - Which is, of course, pretty much codified in the D&D alignment system.

If you are talking about a race that is "usually" or "often" evil, you are not talking about a race that is "born to be bad" (like demons or devils or gem'haddar), but rather, a race that has a predominant culture that sees victimization of other intelligent creatures as right and proper**.

** - Spare any political commentary, please. We are still talking about D&D as an ideal.

In many cases, the cultures that evolve in some races would not be that unlike specific human cultures that would or could evolve. However, there may be some racial insticnts or deep seated cultural aspects that tend to keep them in these sorts of destructive behaviors.

But this doesn't say anything about individual characters. Orcs may have a brutal culture that affects its members, but each individual still makes its own choices. This, IMO, is more than sufficient a grounds for moral ambiguity. Does your paladin kill goblin babies because they will invariable grow up and be evil? In my campaign, that would be an ex-paladin, as the paladin is falling victim to pre-determined judgements about children that could, in the proper environment, turn out to be good.

Perhaps this is just a long-winded way of saying that both a) using "evil races" is reasonable and beleivable and b) using them is NOT tantamount to discarding moral ambiguity.
 
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The question is more nuanced than I'm saying here, but: If you take aspects of a legendary (high fantasy) world and transplant their superficial characteristics to a realistic (low fantasy) world, you obviously cancel their symbolic reason for being there at all. It's possible to find new uses for fantasy races that make a low-fantasy world stronger rather than weaker from their presence, but it's not usual. You can certainly also alter the symbolism, but that takes real skill and care.

To my way of thinking, the whole realistic layer is just one big authentication strategy for what goes on mythologically in the story/game -- and since I don't need much in the way of that kind of authentication, I tend not to care overmuch what rationalizations they use as long as they aren't intrusive.

In Middle-earth, I don't see how a story about a non-evil Orc would accomplish anything, which is in practical terms the same as saying there aren't any. In the World of Greyhawk, D3 itself includes non-evil drow...
 

The idea of a purely evil race is completely improbable by anthropological and socialogical standards but of course fantasy is not reality.

In Tolkein, orcs were completely evil but they were also created. They were not born normally (IIRC). There was no need for them to maintain a viable intergenerational culture on their own. This was accomplished by their human (and other) masters.

But then you have to wonder what is evil. A species that xenophobically hates every other species but has a desire to see their own species prosper, this could be called evil.

The Yuan-ti are perhaps the greatest example of this: they carry on the line out of feeling of superiority and divine mandate. They have a high birth rate to allow for the very high infant mortality rate and thus those who survive are the strongest. It is a inhuman embracing of the idea of social Darwinism. Most would consider this evil. Add onto that the tendency of such species to enslave or slaughter (or both) any "lesser" species they come across, and you have a picture of evil.

But just because the species/culture is evil, does this mean that each individual will be?

I think that most likely, yes. Those yuan-ti (to continue that idea) who survive their first years are the strongest and the most vicious. Those who survive to adolescence learn the hard way that cruelty is rewarded and kindness is punished (sometimes to the point of death). They come to understand, upon reaching adulthood, that everyone who is also an adult is, by definition, the strongest of their kind. They treat each other with respect born of this knowledge but they do not let their guard down. The only thing that keeps the race from disolving into infighting are the divine purpose they serve (in this case to reawaken the Slumbering Serpent and spread yuan-ti influence to overwhelm all other species). Any who continue to be strong (read: cruel and powerful) and who serve to spread the influence of the yuan-ti, are the elite of the society, the most eligible to breed.

I don't see that any but the most abnormal case could lead to a naturally good (or even neutral) yuan-ti. If a yuan-ti were raised by non-yuan-ti they would still be seen as violent and blood-thirsty because those traits have become the dominant for the species. They might learn to view other ideals as positive but they would still be seen as "too violent" or "too duplicitous" for other species.

Now in terms of relativism, the definition of "good" for a yuan-ti is horrific acts of cruelty against non-yuan-ti and those who show weankness, plotting against and enslaving others, blood sacrifices to the Serpent, etc. This is why relativism is so awkward (especially in a game). We are to a great extent bound by the preconceptions of our culture and upbringing as to what we find acceptable. Sure, it is "good" for yuan-ti to attack a human village and kill or enslave the people there. By their norms, they are serving the good of the species. HOWEVER, it is very much not good for the people there, regardless of yuan-ti norms.

It is like the idea of willing (or punative) human sacrifice from within a culture (a rare thing indeed) and forced human sacrifice of prisoners and slaves (more common, historically). With the first, an argument could be made that the sacrifice is not evil because it is for the good of the culture and is accomplished entirely within the culture according to their norms. The second cannot use this argument: the two relative moralities cancel each other out. A more basic morality, that of one sentient creature taking the life of another, must then be invoked. Since presumable neither creature invovled would volunteer to be sacrificed (since neither has), the act of killing must be deemed "wrong" or "evil" regardless of the relative moralities of the cultures.

Within a game, relative morality works best when you are dealing with a large empire with multiple cultures and no single unifying cosmology. In these games, the epic struggle between good and evil is not the focus of the game. Instead, politics and cultural interaction, wars of succession of conquest, and quests of discovery are the order of the day. It can be harder for some players to justify their characters actions in this sort of game. If the creatures I kill are not evil, how can I call my character a good person for killing them?

For epic style games or games with a unified cosmology, a clear, absolute idea of good and evil works better. This is more in keeping with traditional fantasy and tends to lead to fewer player quandaries--although there are still plenty of opportunities for character quandaries. The idea of negotiating with the orc hordes would never come up: the orcs cannot be negotiated with and even if they could, they could not be trusted to uphold their side of the any treaty. It is a simple matter of destroy the orckish infestation or be destroyed by them. They are a force of evil, pure and simple, in the same way that swarming locusts were a implacable force of nature.

For my own campaigns, I tend to use a mixture of the two. humans (and a couple of others) tend to be complex with no single deity defining them and several cultures within the race. Other races (orcs, for example) are absolute.

That was longer than I intended.
DC
 
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Faraer said:
There's a spectrum from the most metaphysically heightened categories, like angels and demons, to humankind in the middle who's assumed capable of great good and evil individually. Humanoid races are symbolic creatures, but the thinning tendency is to reduce them to sciencefictional aliens and/or odd-looking humans. Any given D&Dish world will have a different distribution of races/creatures/species along this spectrum, and any given instance is bound to have the symbolic function in concert or parallel with the realistic function -- the problem is when people don't understand the symbolic function and instead valorize realism as a simulationist absolute good. It is certainly an error to think that because real-life 'races' of humans aren't inherently good or evil, fantastic fictional creatures shouldn't be.
Yes, yes, I agree with you, but again, you're mistake is that you assume that Tolkienian fantasy is the only fantasy. It's as much an error to assume that just because Tolkien made his elves, dwarves and orcs a certain way that all subsequent fantasy must do the same, or there's no point in it being fantasy at all. That's a very exclusionist viewpoint, and ignore perhaps the most obvious reasons for having something that is "against type" -- that it's potentially interesting.

It's as much an error to valorize (valuate?) symbolic functionality of the races of D&D as an absolute good and ignore the realism or simulationist possibilities -- making them essentially a sci-fi race as you say, rather than a fantasy race (although you're distinction is meaningless because by fantasy you appear to only mean Tolkien -- certainly other, different fantasies don't have to follow that same paradigm.) Rather, I say note both the symbolic roots of the races and the simulationist possibilities of the races, and then lean whichever way is more interesting to you and your group. Personally, I'm more towards simulationist rather than symbolist viewpoint.
 

Joshua Dyal said:
And evil doesn't have to be any less real just because it's not racially ingrained.

Which is why there are no "evil from birth" races in my game. (Excepting extraplanar thingies.) Zorbaak the Vast, Orcish Warlord, Slaughterer of Dwarves, Defiler of Elfin Maidens, and Devourer of Gnomes can exist in a campaign whether or not Orcs are born evil. But a world where orcs aren't inherently evil doesn't make Zorbaak a poor, misunderstood soul. Instead, he's worse, because he had a choice.
 

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