Do your players ever suffer real defeat?

[Joker]

Right off the bat, I'll tell you I am not an experienced DM. I have DM'd less than a dozen sessions and some were mediocre, some were crap and some went really well.
The case in point was something of an experimental campaign. We were running a round robin style campaign (5th level) which meant everyone took turns DM'ing after a concluded scene.
I first DM'd this campaign on a Friday night, which is our usual gaming night. And it went f-ing perfect. I had in my head a series of events (combat and non-combat alike) that would happen but other than a few basic stats of opponents (levels and class) I winged the entire thing. That's not saying that I wasn't prepared. I ran descriptions and conversations through my head throughout the preceding week. I made, all humility aside, an adventure that managed to perfectly enthrall the players and challenge them to the utmost, creating an almost euphoric feeling upon being victorious over two opponents of their CR. Their words, not mine (apart from the CR).

Now here comes what happened on that following sunday. We planned on continuing with me as DM to further the story. Eventually they lost but before I get even more ahead of myself, let me tell you what the objective was of the quest they were on.
It was a very basic, stop the ritual or bad things will happen scenario. They came to a point where they heard that there were captives, sacrifices they found out. They set upon rescuing them.
What follows is a series of bad DM wingings (I swear to Buddha it's a word), poor decisions and ridiculous unluck for the players.
-Guards saw them, several of them fought the PC's to hold them off so two others could execute the prisoners.
-Eventually (1 round I think) the PC's defeated the interfering guards and set out to stop the executioners.
-By the time they catch up with them, the guards were about to start a coup-de-grace on the prisoners (4 in total).
-The party runs into the room and starts attacking the guards (who were of course so fanatical that they ignored the PC's and continued the CDG's)
-The following was so unbelievable I wrote it down. The PC's missed every single attack in two rounds. That is 6 melee attacks and 5 AoO's. They missed them all.
Anyway, I'm not gonna continue this much longer. To make a long story short, the series of unfortunate circumstances continued and they failed to stop the ritual which brought doom and gloom upon the world. Note, none of the PC's died in this. Yet everyone in the group felt cheated somehow because I made it really hard for them to win the situation.

There are some things that I should note, though. Everyone, especially me, was tired. I hadn't gone to bed until that morning at 0400 and had woken up at 8 or so to start gaming at 1100.
The Friday before was hard to life up to.
My group in it's 8 years has never been subjected to a TPK or more than one character death at a time. Though character deaths do happen relatively regurlarly.
The moon was in the way of my positive Jupiter rays.

I know I haven't very clearly explained what happened that sunday. But in retrospect it's not really relevant. What is relevant is the concept that there should always be a "way out" or a way in which to win for players. I thought at the time that there are things that there are things that happen in the gameworld that are simply beyond the players' control. And while I did envision ways for them to stop the ritual I didn't think them likely and would have required some sound tactical and some very difficult moral decisions. Though in retrospect since I put them there I probably should have made it easier or...actually I don't know. Like I said, I'm new at this game.

So, if you're still with me, is it acceptable for DM's to create very difficult situations, even impossible ones if they serve the story?

That's such a better and more succinct way of putting it. I need sleep.

 

[Rothe]

......
-The following was so unbelievable I wrote it down. The PC's missed every single attack in two rounds. That is 6 melee attacks and 5 AoO's. They missed them all.
Anyway, I'm not gonna continue this much longer. To make a long story short, the series of unfortunate circumstances continued and they failed to stop the ritual which brought doom and gloom upon the world. Note, none of the PC's died in this. Yet everyone in the group felt cheated somehow because I made it really hard for them to win the situation.

There are some things that I should note, though. Everyone, especially me, was tired. I hadn't gone to bed until that morning at 0400 and had woken up at 8 or so to start gaming at 1100.
The Friday before was hard to life up to.
My group in it's 8 years has never been subjected to a TPK or more than one character death at a time. Though character deaths do happen relatively regurlarly.
The moon was in the way of my positive Jupiter rays.

....

So, if you're still with me, is it acceptable for DM's to create very difficult situations, even impossible ones if they serve the story?

....

To the last two questions first, yes it is acceptable for the DM to create very difficult situations, impossible ones yes but in moderation and with much forethought and consideration if this is "railroading" in a way your players can't stand.

I'll say I've been DMing for 25+ years, being tired is the worst, even if you don't feel sleepy the ability to grasp many things in your head and keep the adventure moving can suffer. So I've found being tired can put a damper on a session.

Now to the first part of the quote above. Work with that. The world is full of doom and gloom. Are we talking on the scale of what if Sauron won? If so, no need to have it happen overnight, maybe there is something the PCs can do to stop it? Maybe they will have to seek someone who can help. Talk about some heroic questing here. I might use the failed rolls as part of the plot and work it into the game. Having the PCs realize, through character knowledge if one is appropriate, that the odds were so low of this happening that some outside agency must have intervened. Maybe a god of time, just a simple way to introduce time travel to make things right, of course with all the complications and paradoxes that implies.

 

[Slife]

Oh, my players suffer real defeat all the time.



Their fictional characters? Not quite so often.

 

[RFisher]

What is relevant is the concept that there should always be a "way out" or a way in which to win for players. I thought at the time that there are things that there are things that happen in the gameworld that are simply beyond the players' control. And while I did envision ways for them to stop the ritual I didn't think them likely and would have required some sound tactical and some very difficult moral decisions. Though in retrospect since I put them there I probably should have made it easier or...actually I don't know. Like I said, I'm new at this game.

So, if you're still with me, is it acceptable for DM's to create very difficult situations, even impossible ones if they serve the story?

I think real defeat is fine. I think defeat, however, needs to be based on player decisions. Chance has a part to play, but player decisions should be able to tip the chances significantly in favor of the PCs. Furthermore, players should have the opportunity to gather the information necessary to make good decisions.

Although, things shouldn't necessarily be linear. I like to set up situations for which I don't know of a solution. The players almost always come up with one. Although, I guess I tend to only do this for situations the PCs don't necessarily need to overcome. Anyway, the point is that I try to be open to the players coming up with ways to improve their success that I hadn't considered.

Some defeats are final. I have no problem with that. Some defeats, however, are just another experience along the way.

The world suddenly being destroyed by forces the PCs can't control... Being up against truly certain death without it being a consequence of your own actions... I suppose a group could enjoy that on some sort of existential or nihilist or I-dunno-what level. I find it extremely unsatisfying.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yes.

A few years ago, we had a party that defeated the evil cult...but the (Good NPC) Archmage's child got killed in the process.

 

[satori01]

Defeat and setbacks are fine, as long as they are set up correctly. By this I mean, failing to stop the evil ritual at 5th level should not bring the end of the world, but rather fulfill on leg of an imminent prophecy, and unleash a very big bad evil, that is somewhat over the heads of the characters, and will probably harm innocents.

Failures should up the stacks, make things harder, but not so hard, or seem so overwhelming that players give up. Setbacks should refocus the group, not entirely demoralize them.

Boromir succumbing to the lure on the One Ring is a good example of an appropriate defeat. It certainly makes things harder, but causes the Fellowship to focus on the important things.

 

[Nightfall]

Do they? Yes when they die usually.

 

[airwalkrr]

I have two TPKs under my belt. The first occured in the second adventure of the Age of Worms. The second occured just a few weeks ago, however this was a solo session with one player playing two characters with three NPC hirelings in the mix (two of whom were actually traitors, which is why the TPK happened in the first place). In the first case, the players rolled up new characters and entered the town having heard about the previous party never returning from the dungeon. In the second case, it isn't the kind of campaign where a TPK is really much more than a hiccup.

I've never been afraid to TPK. It is a very real possibility in D&D and I keep it in my games to keep the fear of death alive. I'm not a "killer DM," it's just that a real threat of death makes the game exciting. TPKs have never been unfun in my campaigns.

 

[Nightfall]

Airwalker,

Interesting you mention Three Faces of Evil. I'm getting ready to start that. *warning spoilers*

Spoiler

So where in the module did they die? in the Cathedral, the Maze of facing off against the Grimlocks? Or dare I hope fighting the Ebon aspect?

 

[Stalker0]

I think this scenario was fine. You set up the goal, the players just couldn't finish it out. It didn't sound like these guards had uber acs or anything so it was just the players bad luck...it happens.

I would make the ritual bad, but not the end. Force the players to come against the odds and get it done.