Does 3E/3.5 dictate a certain style of play?

[Jim Hague]

It's worth noting that our sources for these numbers, both now and in the past, are typically the game's publisher (TSR then, WotC now), and thus you can raise all sorts of doubts. FWIW, WotC (via Charles Ryan) claimed that, as of the 30th anniversary, there were more people playing D&D than at any point previous.

True - the question is, how much of that is enthusiasm, how much is hard data, and how much is PR flacking? Answer - we don't know. Charles is a nice guy, but at the time he was also beholden to WotC. At an estimate (and a wide one, at that), I'd say the numbers may have shrunk some, in the D&D market, but expanded in other directions in the '90s prior to the CCG 'crash'. Given that, if the market's shrunk, I say it'd be very little; fragmentation is another matter entirely.

I think all we can really say is that, of the total gaming population, the majority of them are playing some edition of D&D. The 2e era was probably the only time there was a noticeable loss of fanbase. Anecdotal evidence would probably point to 3e, if anything, bringing fans back to D&D, not to mention creating a whole new sector of the market via the d20STL/OGL. (A model which 1e fans are benefiting from, BTW, via OSRIC and, arguably, C&C.)

I know it brought me and my group back to D&D, and that certainly seemed the case when 3e came out, at least here in Austin. There's a goodly-sized gaming population here, so take that for what you will.

 

[thedungeondelver]

So she could heal herself and she had a very strong AC. But at 66 hit points, she was still designed to have a glass jaw. Healing herself or even willing herself away wasn't going to do any good if she didn't manage to use it. She was designed to be defeatable by 12-15th level characters as the climax to the series... and she most certainly was.

Well, she was designed to be a lethal challenge; nobody should get out of her throne room going "Oh that was easy." (played properly, again), at least in this ol' gamer's opinion.

But yeah going the other way it wasn't like the characters were squaring off against Hextor or Tharizdun, I recognize that. I just don't view it as that much of a cake walk is all.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

So she could heal herself and she had a very strong AC. But at 66 hit points, she was still designed to have a glass jaw. Healing herself or even willing herself away wasn't going to do any good if she didn't manage to use it. She was designed to be defeatable by 12-15th level characters as the climax to the series... and she most certainly was.

Well her pretty good AC was -10 I believe. That is as good as it gets. With a 70% MR, which against a 14th level party still gives her a 55% chance of voiding incoming spells. Her HP are a bit low but along with her other abilities makes her competitive with other demon lords of the time. I don't know if she was really a god at that point. 12th-15th level is pretty bad ass in 1e too. Epic one could say.

 

[GlassJaw]

I've read through most of this thread but I'm going to go back to the original subject line:

Does 3E/3.5 dictate a certain style of play?

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, absolutely, without question.

Realistically though, every rules system dictates a style of play. The designer(s) of any rules system created them for a reason (at least one would hope). A rules system is designed to emulate some kind of action. Which actions and how they are to be emulated is inherent in the rules.

It also depends on the a person's definition of "style of play". Some people seem to take offense to the idea that a system dictates or at least encourages a certain style of play. For example, per the rules as written, Teleport is a 5th-level spell. You have a general idea when the characters will be able to cast teleport and what will happen when they gain access to it.

That's how I define style of play. The creators of 3ed put teleport in for a reason. In their view of the iconic D&D world, teleport exists. That's a style of play choice. Same with raise dead, fireball, and even create water. These things define the "style" that everyone plays in.

Again, per the absolute RAW, even thing like the overall power level of a campaign, the rate at which the characters advance, and the amount of character wealth is defined. All of these affect the style of play. I don't really consider 3ed to be a rules "toolbox". When you crack open a 3ed campaign, you know generally what you are going to get.

Look at the AP's. They are iconic examples of the levels 1-20 D&D campaign. Certain things change depending on the level of the campaign. D&D's various "break points" dictate a style of play.

Now of course many of these things can be changed: level of wealth and treasure, rate of advancement, power level, etc. These are all variables that change the style of play. But to change one of these reaffirms the fact that there is an intrinsic style of play in 3ed to begin with.

 

[thedungeondelver]

For clarity's sake: Lolth, as written, from Q1:

Frequency: Unique
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class: -10(-2)
Move: 1"* 9" (15")
Hit Dice: 66 hit points (16 HD)
% In Lair: 25%
Treasure Type: Q(X5), R, X(x3)
No. of Attacks: 1 and 1 (1)
Damage/attack: 4-16 + poison and webs (or by weapon type)
Special Attacks: See Below
Special Defenses: See below
Magic Resistance: 70%
Intelligence: Godlike
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Size: L (M)
Psionic Ability: 266
Attack/defense modes: all/all
Level/XP Value: X/12470 for destroying material form, 124700 for destroying permanently.

The demoness Lolth is a very powerful and feard demon Lord. She usually takes the form of a giant black widow spider when she is on the Prime Material Plane, and she sometimes assumes this form on her own plane (of the Abyss) as well, but she also enjoys appearing as an exquisitely beautiful female Dark Elf (the statistics for this form as given in parentheses). Little is known about her aims, and only the fact that the DCrow worship of Lolth causes her to assume form on the earth permits compilation of any substantial information whatsoever.

Loloth enjoys the company of spiders of all sorts - giant species while in her arachnid shape, those of normal, large and even huge species while in her humanoid form. She is able to converse with all kinds of spiders and they understand and obey her unquestionlingly.

Although the Queen of Spiders has but 66 hit points, her high armro class prevents most damage, and she is able to heal herself at will, up to thrice/day. As lolth enjoys roving about in one form or another, she will seldom be encountered no matter what th eplane, unless worshippers have invoked her to some special shrine or temple.

In the form of a giant spiderLolth is able to cast web strands 30' long from her abdominal spinnerets which are equal to a web spell with the addition of 1-4 points of damage per round accruing to webbed victims due to a poisonous excretion upon the strands. During the same melee round she is able to deliver a vicious biting attack for 4-16 hit points of damage plus death if the vicitim fails to make his, her or its saving throw versus poison at -4. In her humanoid form, Lolth will use weapons common to Drow.

As a giant spider, the demoness can use any one of the following poewrs, one per melee round, at will: comprehend languages, confusion, darkness 15' radius, dispel magic; twice per day she may use phase door, read magic and shape change; and once per day she may gate - 66% chance for a type I (45%), type II (35%) or type III demon (20%); summon spiders - either 9-16 large (20%), 7-12 huge (30%), 2-8 giant (40%) or 1-4 phase spiders (10%); teleport with no error, tongues and true seeing. In her humanoid shape, Lolth is a 16th level cleric/14th level magic-user with commensurate abilities. However, in the latter form she is unable to wear armor of any sort and her psionic powers are not available to her (see below).

Lolth is not affected by weapons which are not magical, silver does her no harm (unless enchanted to at least +1) and cold, electrical and gas attack forms cause only one-half damage. Acid, poison and magic missiles (if her magic resistance fails her, naturally), affect the demoness normally. Lolth is especially suceptible to holy water, taking 6 points of damage from a splash and 6-21 points (3d6+3) from a direct hit.

The visual range of the demoness extneds into the infrared and ultraviolet spectrums to a normal distance of 120'. Lolth has limited telepathy communication ability as do demons in general.

Her psionic disciplines include the minor devotions of body equilibrium, clairvoyance, domination and the major sciences of dimension walking, mind bar, molecular rearrangement and probability travel. These disciplines (as well as her magical powers) are performed at 16th level of ability (experience).

The following is a list of suggested spells for Lolth. They are arranged according to type and level. The information in the prenthesis after each spell includes the casting time (C), range in feet (R), duratino (DR) and the number carried (x#), where applicable. A reversal of a normal spell is indicated by an asterisk (*) after the spell name; abbreviations are used for the terms "turns" (t), "rounds"(R) and "segments" (s). This information is included for the convenience of the DM, where useful. The DM may wish to change the spells listed below; if this is done, care should be taken to modify Lolth's attack and defense strategies as presented in the module.

Clerical Spells (as 16th level cleric):

First level: Cause fear* (x3, C4s), protection from good* (x2, C 4s, DR 48r), resist cold (C 1r, DR 16t), Sancutary (x3, C 4s, DR 18r)
Second Level: hold person (x5, C 5s, R 60', DR 20r), resist fire (C 5s, DR 16t), silence 15' radius (x3, C5s, R120', DR 32r)
Third level: continual darkness (C 6s, R120'), dispel magic (x2, C6s, R 60'), glyph of warding (x4)
Fourth Level: cause serious wounds (x5, C 7s), sticks to snakes (C 7s, R 30', DR 32r)
Fifth Level: flame strike (x3, C 8s, R 60'), slay living (x2, C 1r, R 30')
Sixth Level: blade barrier (c 9s, R 30', DR 48r), harm (x2, C1r)
Seventh level: unholy word (C 1s, R 30')

Magic-User's spells (as 15th level magic user):
First Level: Magic missile (x3, C1s, R 200'), shield (C1s, DR 70r), ventriloquism (c 1s, R 60', DR 16r)
Second level: detect invisibility (C 2s, R 140', DR 70r), invisibility (x2, C 2s), web (x2, C 2s, r 70', DR 28t)
third level: dispel magic (c 3s, r120'), fireball (x2, C 3s, R 240'), haste (c 3s, R 60', DR 17r), phantasmal force (C 3s, R220')
Fourth level: fire shield (C 4s, DR 16r), fire trap (C 3r), ice storm (C4s, R140'), polymorhp other (C 4s, R 70')
Fifth level: cone of cold (x4, C 5s, R 70')
Sixth level: death spell (C 6s, R 140'), globe of invulnerability (C 1r, DR 14r)
Seventh Level: power word stun (C1 s, R 70')

Spider Abilities (usable only if in spider form:

Spell effect/rate of use:
comprehend languages/once per round
confusion/once per round
darkness 15' radius/once per round
dispel magic/once per round
phase door/twice per day
read magic/twice per day
shape change/twice per day
teleport/once per day
tongues/once per day
true seeing/once per day
gate/once per day
summon spiders/once per day

Optional Abilities

As a lesser goddess, Lolth has certain attributes common to all divine beings. The DM may choose not to use these in this module, since a properly played Lolth will easily destroy most invaders. However, should these abilities be desired or needed for confrontationswith a high-level partythe DM may include them in Lolths abilities. Note that if these optional abilities are used, changes in Lolth's spell selection should be made.

Those characteristics (strength, intelligence, etc.) of Lolth which exceed 18 are explained below. A full explanation of divine characteristics is given in DEITIES & DEMIGODS Cyclopedia, now available from TSR Hobbies, Inc.

S: 21 (+4, +9), I: 21 W:16 D:21 C:21 CH: 3 (23 as Drow)

Strength: when in humanoid form, +4 "to-hit" roll, +9 on damage
Intelligence: 97% chance to know a magic-user's spell, minimum of 13 spells per level; immune to illusion/phantasm spells of 1st through 3rd level (these spells will have no effect on Lolth whatsoever).
Dexterity: +4 reaction/attack adjustment, =5 defensive adjustment.
Constitution: +2 on saving throws vs. poison, regenerate 1 hit point every 5 turns
Charisma (when in humanoid form): +60% reaction adjustmen, +90% lolyaty base; at will, Awe power of 8 HD (any creature or character of 8 HD or less will be awed by the sight and presence of Lolth, and will be unable toinitiate any action other than physical defense). This works through any control up to and including a magic jar spell.
Saving Throws: all gods and demigods (Lolth included) have a saving throw of 2 in all categories (i.e., they will only miss a save by rolling a 1). This is in addition to magic resistance, of course. All saving throwas are unchangeable regardless of magical aids and/or adjustments.

Lolth has the following abilities common to most gods and demigods, over and above th eabilities previously listed. These abilities all fucntion instantaneously and at will but not continuously.
Command: as the spell, but lasting two rounds, no saving throw.
Comprehend Languages: as the spell, except that the deity also gains the ability tspeak and write the language in question.
Detect Alignment: as the spell but with no error and applicable to creatures and objects.
Gate: appolicable to ther beings of the same mythos (demons an non-human deities; see DEITIES & DEMIGODS Cyclopeida for more details).
Geas: as the spell but with a range of 9"
Quest: As the spell but with no saving throw and a range of 9".
Teleport: as the spell but possible from plane to plane as well from place to place.
True Seeing: as the spell.

...

Lolth is one bad cookie.

 

[VirgilCaine]

He does actually have more feats, but they're constant ones (e.g. Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec), not conditional ones. Only conditional feats needed in play are listed.

Cheers!

Ah, thank you.

 

[molonel]

"Nostalgia". That's another one. I hear that term bandied about by post 1e gamers and I've reached the (correct) conclusion that the definition being used here is "hey, you're playing and advocating an older system I don't like any more!" It's never used in the positive - at best it's a little conversational condescension, at worst a thinly-veiled insult

Nostalgia is what you feel for a game you probably haven't played very much. I played it when you could buy new 1e books off the shelf. I can look at what I liked about 1st Edition, and incorporate those elements into my gameplay now. You're still struggling to figure out if you can play 3rd Edition without powergaming. I'm completely at peace with what I liked about previous editions, and completely at peace with the game, now. If I had to state my order of preference, I like 3rd Edition best, then 1st Edition, then 2nd Edition.

I feel no nostalgia because I realize that there were a lot of things about 1st Edition that were rather silly.

It was a great game. My 1e books are well-thumbed, and I can still pull them off the shelf and start reading on any page with interest. But I can recognize the problems with the game the same way I recognize the problems in 3rd Edition. 3.X is not a perfect game, either. Some of the problems raised in this thread deal with its very real faults.

But the main problem with 3rd Edition is NOT that it simply isn't more like 1st Edition. Making it mechanically similar to 1st Edition would be a mistake.

Nolstalgia is not a positive thing. It's putting on rose-colored glasses to look at something, and ignoring its faults.

In my opinion, that is what you're doing.

Sixty-six. She could heal herself fully 2x a day. She was attended by her Handmaidens (remember them? you had to plow through them while she was gateing in all types of demons), she'd be using magic-user and cleric spells nearly at-will, psionically attacking and if all else failed she could simply will the PCs away or will herself away.

Pardon me. The goddess Lolth, ruler of an entire plane, had 66 hit points. I missed it by 33. My bad.

I think you need to decide, though, whether 3rd Edition compels you to be a rampant powergamer, or whether we just don't understand how powerful you had to be in 1st Edition game to defeat the goddess Lolth, because these two positions aren't quite meshing.

Don't mistake a badly run monster for a badly designed monster. It isn't the module's fault you had a poor DM.

I had an extraordinary DM, thanks for asking. Lolth was still a joke. I think in the Greyhawk novel, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, they stuffed her into a Portable Hole filled with holy water. My eyes ached for days from rolling them into the back of my head.

....eeeeeeeexcept it doesn't. Name a current D&D supplement that's sold two hundred thousand copies. At it's peak in the early 80's, D&D enjoyed an audience of some four million players. What is it now, one point five? Maybe two with the wind at it's back?

....eeeeeeeexcept it does.

D&D is the top game in a market that competes more heavily with better-designed and more aggressive competitors. Did Gary Gygax have to compete with World of Warcraft selling a million copies in the first week of its release? No, he didn't. And he'd be crapping in his pants if he did.

When D&D came out, there was nothing else like it. We had Pong for video games, back then. Remember? Oh wait. You couldn't, because you weren't there. GURPS was a distant blip on the horizon. World of Darkness wasn't even an angst-ridden gleam in eyes of goths who didn't exist.

It has a diluted product base where the industry basically goes "throw it to the wall, see what sticks!" courtesy of OGL/d20.

Crappy books are nothing new to 3rd Edition, nor to 2nd Edition, nor to 1st Edition. 2nd Edition: Complete Book of What? And lest we forget, 1st Edition gave us the glorious tradition of writing down the hit point totals of gods. We used to call the 1st Edition Deities and Demigods the Hunting Manual for Gods. When I was in junior high school, I had friends who ran battles against the Knights of the Round Table so that they could loot Excalibur. A friend of mine was so proud when he figured out a way to kill Elric, and use the Ring of Kings to defeat Thor and take Mjolnir.

Ah, those were the days!

"better" is purely subjective.

Indeed it is. But that is my opinion, and I have every right to hold it.

 

[molonel]

Lolth is one bad cookie.

On paper, yes.

But back then, we'd comb through books and Dragon Magazine articles looking for artifacts to thwart her strengths. There was a Chinese deity who was an assassin of the gods. He had a necklace that was a triangle of stone that could transform into any weapon you wanted. Or you figured out a way to kill Elric and take the Ring of Kings or Stormbringer. Why not? They were statted out, if you had the first run of Deities and Demigods.

Those were the zannier solutions, of course. We had serious ones. I don't even remember what they were, but all you needed was one good attack on her. No time to heal. No chance to respond.

There was always a way, and her pathetic hit points gave her a glass jaw.

Or we'd come up with some whacked-out solution like a Portable Hole full of holy water, like they did in the novel. The reason TSR could publish a novel with that sort of climax in the story was because people DID things like that in their games.

 

[theemrys]

Back to the original question... I personally love running my campaign in Kingdoms of Kalamar and like to keep it "rare magic". That is, magic isn't all that common, but when the party gets an item, it's usually pretty good. I still pretty much use the CR system in most cases and really haven't had any issues with spellcasters outstripping the fighting types... but I also tend to have more encounters between resting periods than is "recommended", which means spellcasters have to be a bit more frugal with their abilities.

I don't really break any of the RAW and find it still works well. Mostly I think it just has to do with the DM style and players.

 

[billd91]

I've read through most of this thread but I'm going to go back to the original subject line:


Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, absolutely, without question.

Realistically though, every rules system dictates a style of play. <snip>

Now of course many of these things can be changed: level of wealth and treasure, rate of advancement, power level, etc. These are all variables that change the style of play. But to change one of these reaffirms the fact that there is an intrinsic style of play in 3ed to begin with.

What you're getting at here isn't a dictated style of play. You're describing more of a default style of play, or even more accurately, a default set of tools that work well with a set of styles of play. But you can still have a variety of different true styles of play even with those default tools ranging from swashbuckling action high-roleplay romance in the royal courts to beer and pretzels kicking in the doors in a dungeon.

There is no dictatorial relationship between the rules and which style of play you actually use.