Does 4e have a sweet spot?

[S'mon]

So, when looking for opponents for a level 1 party, you can use up to level 5 monsters without any problems. You can go even higher for hard encounters.

Eh, in my 4e group's first encounter, seven level 1 PCs, I nearly wiped them out with: 1 Hobgoblin Lieutenant (level 5), 1 Hobgoblin blaster wizard, forget the name (level 3 artillery/controller), 1 hobgoblin archer (level 3 artillery), and maybe 4 hobgoblin grunt minion-3s. 5 level 3 opponents would certainly have smushed them.

They were able to handle groups of 6-8 grunt minions led by 2-3 level 3 soldiers & artillery though.

Edit: If I start another 4e campaign I think I'll start at 3rd, so beginning PCs can face the mighty Hobgoblin Soldier or Orc Raider without peeing their pants.

 

[Teemu]

I've always leveled the monsters to match the PCs' level, to offset possible grind. It's worked really well, the players are able to hit the enemies often but the fights are still very much dynamic (going bloodied or unconscious frequently). I just spend the xp budget using equal-level enemies.

 

[ppaladin123]

As far as challenges for tiers go, it's important to note that later monster manuals are a lot better about it. The first one has it's shakiness in a few areas.

I was wondering about this. A lot of the discussions about unfun grind in 4e seemed to center on campaigns in the paragon and epic tier. The monster manual errata on defenses and damage seem to mostly affect creatures in that range. Maybe that has helped extend the fun range.

 

[Abraxas]

I was wondering about this. A lot of the discussions about unfun grind in 4e seemed to center on campaigns in the paragon and epic tier. The monster manual errata on defenses and damage seem to mostly affect creatures in that range. Maybe that has helped extend the fun range.

My experience has been that the changes have decreased the fun and lead to more frustration, especially in high paragon and epic - YMMV.

 

[LostSoul]

I've only played up to 8th level.

I come at this from a different point of view: I'm not really interested in the sorts of events that take place in Paragon and (especially) Epic tiers. I think Conan is Heroic Tier, Elric is Paragon, and Epic just seems crazy to me - though it could be interesting in a HeroQuest kind of way.

That means that for me the sweet spot is 1-14 or so.

 

[amnuxoll]

I just wrapped up a campaign that spanned levels 1-16. I was never unhappy.

I've also played various RPGA 4e events at different levels in the Heroic and Paragon tiers with no complaints.

 

[Baphomet]

I think I prefer paragon tier the most as both a DM and a player. The other tiers are fun in their own right but I find paragon tier means as a DM I can take the kid gloves off, dont really have to worry about fudging the odd dice roll anymore and I can use all the awesome monsters I love like Beholders, Mind Flayers, Demons, Devils, Lichs, Vampires, Giants... the fun stuff!

I guess its because ive played in so many campaigns over the years that ive seen a HELL of a lot more orcs, goblins and bandits than I ever have of the more powerfull monsters.

I think starting at lvl1 and thus Heroic tier is crucial for character development and learning the world and your place in it though so its a necessary thing.... I only had one game I ran progress to epic tier back in 2nd edition and while it was fun for my players it sure became harder to DM!

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

epic it just gets worse because they no longer have to hit (too many auras) and stuff starts to have after effects and I can't shore up my weak defenses enough to not be hit (when the DM says he hit a will defense 18 higher than what I have and its not a crit I know I'm in trouble)

Yeah, I've had similar experiences. My sweet spot is late heroic to early paragon: I have enough options to be interesting, but the math hole isn't deep enough to create auto-hit problems.

 

[karlindel]

In 3e, I found the sweet spot to be lvls 3-10, and never ran a campaign that went above lvl 12 (although I ran some sessions at those levels, so I did try them out). In 4e, I haven't played Epic Tier, so I can't comment on that. I've run a campaign from lvl 1-16, played in the first couple of WOTC adventures, and played a number of one shots, mostly at heroic tier.

I have enjoyed the game at all of the levels I have played. That said, the one shots run at paragon tier tended to run long because it takes longer for people to figure out their powers. I prefer play at lvl 3+, as that gives the players a utility and a second encounter, so there are more options on the table.

I have noticed some small issues with monsters hitting very easily at paragon tier particularly when targeting Fort/Ref/Will Defenses, but that hasn't caused any problems yet. We'll see if it becomes one at higher paragon or the epic tier.

 

[Doug McCrae]

There's not enough monster choice at very low level - lots of kobolds and goblins but not much else, though reskinning is an option.