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Does 4e limit the scope of campaigns?
- Thread starter Wik
- Start date
Thasmodious
First Post
Many players (and DMs) of D&D would disagree with you on that point.
I, for one.
In context, I think that was a pretty straight forward statement. I'm not talking about the occasional fleeing from the more powerful monster or encounter that took a bad turn. Fleeing, in that context, is of the "I'm just a normal human and incapable of combating horrors from beyond time and space" variety.
Aus_Snow
First Post
Oh. Well, fair enough then. I just took the words at face value, and it's entirely possible I missed the point of what you were actually saying, or meaning anyway. Happens a fair bit, particularly online.
Just seemed like a pretty strange assertation, at the time. Sorry, OP, for the unnecessary sidetrack.
jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
Absolutely. It limits them to Awesome. If you want to play something that isn't Awesome with 4e, I'm afraid that you're screwed 
More seriously, yes, it has limitations — all rule sets do, as you wisely point out.
I wouldn't use D&D 4e to run a campaign that was non-cinematic or non-epic in nature (because its rules don't support non-cinematic or non-epic play very well, IMO).
I also wouldn't use it for any kind of simulation — of course, I wouldn't use any edition of D&D for that as, IMO, all of them handle simulation of reality or literature very poorly at best.
More seriously, yes, it has limitations — all rule sets do, as you wisely point out. I wouldn't use D&D 4e to run a campaign that was non-cinematic or non-epic in nature (because its rules don't support non-cinematic or non-epic play very well, IMO).
I also wouldn't use it for any kind of simulation — of course, I wouldn't use any edition of D&D for that as, IMO, all of them handle simulation of reality or literature very poorly at best.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
What kind of tools does the regular CoC or d20 Modern investigate at his hand to solve a crime? Does he have Speak with Dead, Divination, Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore or Identify? Or does he just have his bare bone skills and can try to look for clues, make sense of a trace, and talk to witnesses?
If he has the first at his disposal, I suppose it might be harder for 4E to manage that.
But the latter, 4E does very well. Because the characters have all the skills required for that (at least those that are "appropriate" for a Fantasy Campaign. No one has "CSI"-style skills aka "Investigate" or "Evidence Analysis" or whatever games set in this or the last century might offer).
The hardest part is not doing what you want to do, the hardest part is not doing what you do not want to do, which would be running excessive combats against supernatural, horrifying monsters. Here you will find the real limitations, because 4E characters are really good at combat, and you can do a lot in them. And, if you get most of your XP by combat (which you really shouldn't), you need a lot of that, too.
This makes it harder to run the "Fight a single, superior monster from the Far Realm"*, though it would manage fine a "Zombie Invasion" story-line. The 4E resource management might give the inexperienced player the illusion that after each combat, he's up to full health and can go on infinitely. But he will learn that he's down to 2 healing surges and he hasn't gotten out of town yet!
*) There are ways to do this, but again, with constraints. The monster needs to "return" occasionally, so you split one monster over multiple encounters. That doesn't work for all of them. The "Tentacles from the Ground" or an "Alien"-like monster could pull it off, retreating when it is "destroyed" and coming back for a later encounter.
--
Low Magic is possible, but maybe not "low-wahoo", since at higher levels, martial powers will be very impressive and there is little way to conceal that. (Besides, if you have a few of "mundane" guys fight a Dragon, it won't feel very low-magic anymore. But then, you don't _have_ to use a Dragon just because that's in the name of the game. )
If he has the first at his disposal, I suppose it might be harder for 4E to manage that.
But the latter, 4E does very well. Because the characters have all the skills required for that (at least those that are "appropriate" for a Fantasy Campaign. No one has "CSI"-style skills aka "Investigate" or "Evidence Analysis" or whatever games set in this or the last century might offer).
The hardest part is not doing what you want to do, the hardest part is not doing what you do not want to do, which would be running excessive combats against supernatural, horrifying monsters. Here you will find the real limitations, because 4E characters are really good at combat, and you can do a lot in them. And, if you get most of your XP by combat (which you really shouldn't), you need a lot of that, too.
This makes it harder to run the "Fight a single, superior monster from the Far Realm"*, though it would manage fine a "Zombie Invasion" story-line. The 4E resource management might give the inexperienced player the illusion that after each combat, he's up to full health and can go on infinitely. But he will learn that he's down to 2 healing surges and he hasn't gotten out of town yet!
*) There are ways to do this, but again, with constraints. The monster needs to "return" occasionally, so you split one monster over multiple encounters. That doesn't work for all of them. The "Tentacles from the Ground" or an "Alien"-like monster could pull it off, retreating when it is "destroyed" and coming back for a later encounter.
--
Low Magic is possible, but maybe not "low-wahoo", since at higher levels, martial powers will be very impressive and there is little way to conceal that. (Besides, if you have a few of "mundane" guys fight a Dragon, it won't feel very low-magic anymore. But then, you don't _have_ to use a Dragon just because that's in the name of the game.
)
Pbartender
First Post
Let me ask something...
Way back when (if?) you played OD&D, BD&D, or AD&D, how did you play out non-combat situations? None of those games had even as much support for non-combat activities as 4E does. Remember, we did even get non-wepon proficiencies until 2E, and there weren't a whole lot of rules for using those.
So the simple answer is... Roleplay it.
And when necessary use a skill check, an ability check or a skill challenge to setermine success.
ExploderWizard
Hero
There were NWP from Oriental Adventures in 1E (1985) and the survival guides. I'm quite certain that players created thier own systems for these kinds of activities before then so you are still partially correct.
You, sir, had some very forgiving DMs...One of the things I dislike most about the change in "culture" between the "old school" and the "new school" (and I'm not sure where the line is; I don't think it's a hard edition line, but "CRs" and "Encounter Levels" certainly didn't help) is the idea that the PCs will not encounter things outside of some arbitrary acceptable level spread -- that somehow the world changes to match their level.
In the deep places of the world, there are things from which even epic heroes should flee.
Nightchilde-2
First Post
IMO, D&D is for playing games of spell-carrying, sword-toting, door-kicking, monster-killing heroes.
If I want to play some other genre, say, Cthuluesque horror, I'll play some other game..such as Call of Cthulu (not the d20 version, either). If I want to play the "common man" sort of fantasy game, I have WHFRPG. Over-the-top badassness? Exalted. Something modern and scary? World of Darkness. Something futuristic? Dark Heresy or Shadowrun.
The point is, I don't *need* D&D to be all things. I need it to be what it is; there are other games for other scenarios.
If I want to play some other genre, say, Cthuluesque horror, I'll play some other game..such as Call of Cthulu (not the d20 version, either). If I want to play the "common man" sort of fantasy game, I have WHFRPG. Over-the-top badassness? Exalted. Something modern and scary? World of Darkness. Something futuristic? Dark Heresy or Shadowrun.
The point is, I don't *need* D&D to be all things. I need it to be what it is; there are other games for other scenarios.
arscott
First Post
I think you're underselling a particularly important part of 4e that's really benificial to an investigative-style adventure: It handles a low-combat game much better, in terms of resource management, than any other edition of the game.
With the separation of powers into daily and per encounter categories, and the addition of healing surges, you've got a system where you can throw just one encounter at your party each day and still have that encounter be challenging. A 3rd edition party facing a level appropriate challenge that didn't have to worry about conserving spells and hp for future encounters would have a cakewalk in front of them. If you tried to make things more challenging by adding tougher foes, it just got swingy--either PCs did just as well as they did against lower-level opponents, or they lacked the abilities necessary to effectivly counter their foes.
In 4e, if the party only has one fight a day, it's a little bit easier because they get to use their dailies, but you don't have the same why-even-bother fights that you had in 3e.
With the separation of powers into daily and per encounter categories, and the addition of healing surges, you've got a system where you can throw just one encounter at your party each day and still have that encounter be challenging. A 3rd edition party facing a level appropriate challenge that didn't have to worry about conserving spells and hp for future encounters would have a cakewalk in front of them. If you tried to make things more challenging by adding tougher foes, it just got swingy--either PCs did just as well as they did against lower-level opponents, or they lacked the abilities necessary to effectivly counter their foes.
In 4e, if the party only has one fight a day, it's a little bit easier because they get to use their dailies, but you don't have the same why-even-bother fights that you had in 3e.
