Does a Death Ward Protect against Phantasmal Killer?
- Thread starter Celtavian
- Start date
Sejs
First Post
Sorry to come into this a bit late but..
(this is in refrence to an assassin's Death Attack ability being stopped by Death Ward)
Incorrect.
"The subject is immune to all death spells and magical death effects. The spell does not protect against other sorts of attacks, such as hit point loss, poison, petrification, or other effects even if they might be lethal."
As an assassin's Death Attack is neither a spell, nor magical in any way (hence the Ex tag), Death Ward would not stop it. Much in the same way Death Ward could not stop age from killing you, a nasty fall down the stairs from killing you, or a coup de gras from killing you.
Additionally, looking over all the various spells that do have the [Death] descriptor, they all seem to operate on directly destroying life force. Instead of, say.. scaring you really bad (Phant. Killer), burning you to a cinder (var. fire spells), evaporating all the fluids in your body (Horrid Wilting), transmuting your body to stone (Flesh to Stone), or discorperating your physical body (Disintegrate). You cannot Raise somone who has been killed by a Death effect because their soul (life force) has been destroyed. Similar to why you cannot raise someone who has been turned into undead: when you die, your soul goes free to the afterlife ... when you're brought back as undead your soul is forced to reinhabit the body and bound as it's animating force again. Bound being the operating term.. destroying the body, destroys the soul.
So, examples.. cause examples are fun.
Illusionist John: *casts Phantasmal Killer at Farmer Jenkins*
~Phantasmal Killer manifests in Farmer Jenkins mind as his worst fears: his now passed-on mother~
Phantasmal Mother: "Boo."
Farmer Jenkins: "Oh no! My mother!"
~Farmer Jenkins' heart stops from the sheer terror of the apparition~
Farmer Jenkins: "Ack, my heart!"
~Farmer Jenkins dies~
In the above example, Farmer Jenkins is killed by fear. His life-force remains intact, and he could be raised from the dead if his soul wished to come back, and the appropriate spell were cast.
Example 2.
Nerull Nun Nancy: "Die for the glory of the Rotting Lord!" *casts Slay Living on Farmer Jenkins*
~black, unholy power courses from Nerull Nun Nancy's palm, and invades Farmer Jenkins' body~
Farmer Jenkins: "Oh no! An evil priestess!"
~Farmer Jenkins' soul is consumed by the dark power Nerull Nun Nancy commands~
Farmer Jenkins: "Ack, my soul!"
~Farmer Jenkins dies~
Now in this example, Farmer Jenkins is killed by having his soul / life-force destroyed by the Slay Living spell. Said life-force is no longer present anywhere. It's gone. Period. As such, Farmer Jenkins cannot be raised back to life without the application of a Resurrection, True Resurrection, Wish, Miracle, or at the GMs discretion, a Reincarnation spell.
(this is in refrence to an assassin's Death Attack ability being stopped by Death Ward)
Incorrect.
"The subject is immune to all death spells and magical death effects. The spell does not protect against other sorts of attacks, such as hit point loss, poison, petrification, or other effects even if they might be lethal."
As an assassin's Death Attack is neither a spell, nor magical in any way (hence the Ex tag), Death Ward would not stop it. Much in the same way Death Ward could not stop age from killing you, a nasty fall down the stairs from killing you, or a coup de gras from killing you.
Additionally, looking over all the various spells that do have the [Death] descriptor, they all seem to operate on directly destroying life force. Instead of, say.. scaring you really bad (Phant. Killer), burning you to a cinder (var. fire spells), evaporating all the fluids in your body (Horrid Wilting), transmuting your body to stone (Flesh to Stone), or discorperating your physical body (Disintegrate). You cannot Raise somone who has been killed by a Death effect because their soul (life force) has been destroyed. Similar to why you cannot raise someone who has been turned into undead: when you die, your soul goes free to the afterlife ... when you're brought back as undead your soul is forced to reinhabit the body and bound as it's animating force again. Bound being the operating term.. destroying the body, destroys the soul.
So, examples.. cause examples are fun.
Illusionist John: *casts Phantasmal Killer at Farmer Jenkins*
~Phantasmal Killer manifests in Farmer Jenkins mind as his worst fears: his now passed-on mother~
Phantasmal Mother: "Boo."
Farmer Jenkins: "Oh no! My mother!"
~Farmer Jenkins' heart stops from the sheer terror of the apparition~
Farmer Jenkins: "Ack, my heart!"
~Farmer Jenkins dies~
In the above example, Farmer Jenkins is killed by fear. His life-force remains intact, and he could be raised from the dead if his soul wished to come back, and the appropriate spell were cast.
Example 2.
Nerull Nun Nancy: "Die for the glory of the Rotting Lord!" *casts Slay Living on Farmer Jenkins*
~black, unholy power courses from Nerull Nun Nancy's palm, and invades Farmer Jenkins' body~
Farmer Jenkins: "Oh no! An evil priestess!"
~Farmer Jenkins' soul is consumed by the dark power Nerull Nun Nancy commands~
Farmer Jenkins: "Ack, my soul!"
~Farmer Jenkins dies~
Now in this example, Farmer Jenkins is killed by having his soul / life-force destroyed by the Slay Living spell. Said life-force is no longer present anywhere. It's gone. Period. As such, Farmer Jenkins cannot be raised back to life without the application of a Resurrection, True Resurrection, Wish, Miracle, or at the GMs discretion, a Reincarnation spell.
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Sejs said:
I think it might be more accurate to say that their spirit/soul/life force is "damaged" rather than "destroyed." That's why you need more powerful curative magic than raise dead to bring them back.
If it was actually destroyed, nothing short of a wish or miracle would be able to bring them back.
Antikinesis
First Post
Corwin said:
Dan... are you listening, Dan the Pie-man? Corwin wants to punish WOTC Customer Service.
TAKE AWAY THEIR COOKIE!
[WHINE]Why am I the only one who loses their cookie? It ain't fair. [/WHINE]
-AK
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Benben said:
Make a fort save
Daniel
Confidential to AK: look, friend, you just lost a cookie for your contagious headache. Benben is being confronted with his worst nightmare. Quitcher whinin'!
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Re
You know, some of the arguments on here were actually decent such as those bringing up the fact that fear caused death rather than an attack upon the life force. I can relate to this argument.
Some of the poster's reasoning was absolutely pathetic. Just because a fireball hits you for damage that will kill you is in no way a save or die spell per the D&D definition. Anyone who would interpret a death effect or magical death attack this way is being rather block-headed to say the least. Your grasp of D&D jargon and the English language must make you do such things as "Jump off the nearest bridge" because someone in authority told you to do so and you could interpret this statement in no other way than literally.
The summon monster argument was so pathetic that not even posters who believed PK was not a death effect bought into it.
I am sorry, death from massive damage or poison is still not protected by death ward. Why? They are neither a death effect or a magical death attack. PK falls into the second category in my opinion because it is a magical death attack, even if not directly a death effect such as Death touch or a Bodak's gaze. The Poison spell is also not a save or die spell. It causes ability damage that may or may not result in death. Big difference.
In D&D, a save or die spell means simply save or die, no more, no less. PK falls in this category as it has no other effect.
I do wish WOTC would have given more of an explanation as to why DW protects against PK, but since my gaming group was still undecided, we are going to let WOTC customer support cast the deciding vote.
I am finished with this thread.
You know, some of the arguments on here were actually decent such as those bringing up the fact that fear caused death rather than an attack upon the life force. I can relate to this argument.
Some of the poster's reasoning was absolutely pathetic. Just because a fireball hits you for damage that will kill you is in no way a save or die spell per the D&D definition. Anyone who would interpret a death effect or magical death attack this way is being rather block-headed to say the least. Your grasp of D&D jargon and the English language must make you do such things as "Jump off the nearest bridge" because someone in authority told you to do so and you could interpret this statement in no other way than literally.
The summon monster argument was so pathetic that not even posters who believed PK was not a death effect bought into it.
I am sorry, death from massive damage or poison is still not protected by death ward. Why? They are neither a death effect or a magical death attack. PK falls into the second category in my opinion because it is a magical death attack, even if not directly a death effect such as Death touch or a Bodak's gaze. The Poison spell is also not a save or die spell. It causes ability damage that may or may not result in death. Big difference.
In D&D, a save or die spell means simply save or die, no more, no less. PK falls in this category as it has no other effect.
I do wish WOTC would have given more of an explanation as to why DW protects against PK, but since my gaming group was still undecided, we are going to let WOTC customer support cast the deciding vote.
I am finished with this thread.
I wouldn't let WOTC customer support wipe my rear. Let alone tell me how a spell works.
When you are someone who can't grasp the concept of death descriptors then you shouldn't be talking. That was a very harshe reply. Those that live in glass houses shouldn't go to the bathroom in broad daylight.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Re: Re
That's fine. I think that death effects are the ones labeled as such. A nymph's deadly beauty isn't the same thing as a bodak's soul-sucking evil. Basically, the argument comes down to whether something needs to be labeled a death effect to be counted as such.
WOTC's customer support gives an absurd answer that nobody here accepts: they suggest that a magical effect that kills someone if they don't save is a death effect. As many people here have pointed out, this is poor wording, and certainly nobody agrees that a maximized 10HD fireball vs. a 45-hp PC counts as a death effect -- even though it falls under the literal wording of the WOTC response.
You establish a reasonable counter-rule: you count something as a death effect if it's a binary, die-or-nothing-happens effect.
I think that 3E's strength resides largely in its modular nature, in its use of descriptors for spells, powers, creature types, and so on. Accordingly, I figure a death effect is one labeled as such.
Until we get a clear, reasonable answer from WOTC (preferably in a FAQ), it doesn't look like there'll be an authoritative answer to this question. Just make sure that your entire group knows how it'll be ruled ahead of time.
Daniel
Celtavian said:
That's fine. I think that death effects are the ones labeled as such. A nymph's deadly beauty isn't the same thing as a bodak's soul-sucking evil. Basically, the argument comes down to whether something needs to be labeled a death effect to be counted as such.
WOTC's customer support gives an absurd answer that nobody here accepts: they suggest that a magical effect that kills someone if they don't save is a death effect. As many people here have pointed out, this is poor wording, and certainly nobody agrees that a maximized 10HD fireball vs. a 45-hp PC counts as a death effect -- even though it falls under the literal wording of the WOTC response.
You establish a reasonable counter-rule: you count something as a death effect if it's a binary, die-or-nothing-happens effect.
I think that 3E's strength resides largely in its modular nature, in its use of descriptors for spells, powers, creature types, and so on. Accordingly, I figure a death effect is one labeled as such.
Until we get a clear, reasonable answer from WOTC (preferably in a FAQ), it doesn't look like there'll be an authoritative answer to this question. Just make sure that your entire group knows how it'll be ruled ahead of time.
Daniel
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