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Does anyone besides me watch Japanese animation?

As far as Dragonball goes, they must be doing something right, between dragonball, DBZ and Dragonball GT (yet to be released in Ameriaca) there are 500+ episodes and a dozen or so movies or OVA's. By comparison the Simpsons are in their 14th season and are up to episode 304. Not that this makes Dragonball great or anything but It's hard to say a show with that kind of staying power sucks. The americanized cartoon network episodes don't do it any favors, but I doubt anybody posting here would be in the target audience they are gunning for, I've talked to several ten to twelve year olds who think it is the best thing they have ever seen.
 

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Tsyr said:


I've found that most peoples "entry anime" also tends to stay on their list of favorites. Strangely, I don't even remember what mine was.
Technically, mine probably would have been G-Force, but I was a kid at the time and had no idea there was such a thing as anime. Years later I was quite surprised to find the Science Ninja Force was actually trying to kill the bad guy.;)

My biggest single problem with DBZ is the pacing sucks. Far too much time is spent flexing, groaning, glaring, posing, and powering up... If you cut out all the repeated frames in the series, you could probably fit the entire series into half as many episodes as it is now.
Pacing is an issue at times. Personally, I liked that both Vegita and Goku took five eps or so to recover from their first major battle. But at times fights drag or are obviously filler. Othertimes the point of the fight is not so obvious but is there. Vegito's battle with Majin Buu pretty much went as planned from begining to end, though the dubbing messed that up.

It's also far too predictable... Current hero finds new threat. New threat kicks current hero's ass for a while. Current hero goes off and trains, or figures out his own inner flaw. Current hero comes back and saves the day. Massive damage to surrounding landscape. Possible deaths, never permanent. It never bloody changes.
I think you are thinking Black Belt Theatre. Otherwise, really, name one time this formula was used? Goku trained a good long time for the battle with Napa and Vegita but he never fought them before that battle. Goku never fought Frieza, left and went to train, came back and kicked butt. It was just an overly long fight.:) Similarly in Cell Saga Goku trained with Gohan, Vegita with Trunks but neither of them fought Cell before that training as far as I can recall. Ok, I take it back. A variation of that formula was used once, when Gotenks got his butt kicked by Majin Buu and went off to train but that had nothing to do with beating internal flaws. Gotenks never did overcome his ego.:)

As for possible deaths, never permanant. Sounds a bit like DnD, neh? Much like a general DnD world, you can bring someone dead back to life and it's common enough it's assumed. Krillin more than once says "Oh well, if I get killed you can bring me back." Very DnD like and quite consistent with the world. the dragonballs are a dues ex machina (badly spelled) and as that are well used at times and badly used other times.

Actualy, I kinda like the original Dragonball. That show has a charm to it that is completely lost in DBZ.
For most of DB the focus was on comedy with some action. That shifted more toward action with some comedy and it was at that point DB and then DBZ became really successful. Amusing, the original DB had at least one scene (obviously cut for the US release) that is classified as hentai now.
 
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Mark said:


*...fingers crossed...*



WooT! But I do not wish for you to worship me. I only ask that you laugh at some (not all) of my jokes... ;)

You're going to have to warn me when you're about to make a joke so that I can call upon my superhero acting skills.

P.S. About the worshiping part....we're not going back to the yaoi-deprived girls topic are we?

*...fingers crossed...*
 

Black Omega said:
I think you are thinking Black Belt Theatre. Otherwise, really, name one time this formula was used?

He mis-stated the formula.

1. Villains arrive
2. Z-fighters engage
3. Minor tagouts occur
4. Big baddie kills and or beats up z-fighters
5. Goku arrives late, to much rejoicing
6. Goku schools ignornant, arrogant villains
7. Lead villain redoubles efforts, nearly killing Goku
8. Goku defeats villain at last second, and realizes more powerful villain is coming
9. Goku goes to heal or die, effectively removing him from fighting roster
10. z-fighters train so they will be strong enough to lose to more powerful villains, and to restore Goku or buy him time
11. Cycle Restarts

The essential formula changes after the first three sagas or so, but by then, only the die-hards are watching, anyways. I like DBZ, but I don't pretend it to be anything other than harmless superhero chopsocky. :)


As for possible deaths, never permanant. Sounds a bit like DnD, neh? Much like a general DnD world, you can bring someone dead back to life and it's common enough it's assumed. Krillin more than once says "Oh well, if I get killed you can bring me back." Very DnD like and quite consistent with the world. the dragonballs are a dues ex machina (badly spelled) and as that are well used at times and badly used other times.

Well, originally death WAS permanent. Then it was permanent, except you can be resurrected ONCE by the dragonballs. Then it was once for each SET of Dragonballs. And so on. That's why some fights were scary for the z-fighters....they'd already been resurrected, and the original set wouldn't be able to bring them back.


For most of DB the focus was on comedy with some action. That shifted more toward action with some comedy and it was at that point DB and then DBZ became really successful. Amusing, the original DB had at least one scene (obviously cut for the US release) that is classified as hentai now.

More than just one scene: Goku's endless discussions about genatalia, urination, several characters obsession with girls panties (and girls in general), fondling of female body-parts and so forth. Never mind happy talking poop from Dr. Slump. :eek:
 

jdavis said:
It's sort of funny but the first Anime I ever saw was Legend of the Overfiend, if you don't know what it is count yourself lucky, If you have seen it then I am terribly sorry, it's the kind of movie that just makes you feel dirty when it's over.

I couldn't just let this go...

Yes, Legend of the Overfiend should make you feel dirty. There's a lot of horrifc stuff in it. But the same could be said about the movies of Passolini, or less obscurely, films like Last Exit to Brooklyn, or Requiem For a Dream {or any project Harmony Korine is involved with}.

It's most centainly not for everyone, but I found it kinda brilliant. I rememebr the Village Voice called it "not genre-breaking, but genre anihilating". That about sums it up. It mixes genre elements, including hardcore pornography, in a way that I'd never seen before. And haven't since.

It also takes subtext of sexual violence that's been present in horror and sci-fi forever{consider early pulp covers featuring transparent spacesuited women being carried off by bug-eyed monsters}, and brings it to the surface in an explict fashion. I like that confrontational nature.
 

Can someone please explain the appeal to Anime? I have seen a few things like Those who hunt elves, Bubble Gum crisis. But that's it.
 

Tharkun said:
Can someone please explain the appeal to Anime? I have seen a few things like Those who hunt elves, Bubble Gum crisis. But that's it.

The problem with this question, and don't take this the wrong way, but it's like asking what's the appeal of science fiction or mysteries, in a way. Though it may not necessarily appear that way from a cursory glance, anime is fairly vast, based on japanese comics, called manga, which cover even more territory. Certain kinds of anime are much more popular in the U.S. than others. Anime features fewer genres than manga, and is targetted at a less broad audience, usually children on through to college students. Manga, on the other hand, covers all ages and topics, from business stories, politics (Eagle), romance stories, Golf tournaments, horse trainers, superheroes, samurai epics, giant robots, science fiction and everything under the sun.

There are anime stories that can and have been done as live actions shows, with virtually no change between them, such as the romantic comedy Maison Ikkokku, historical drama Sazae-san (the tale of a young buddhist acolyte in Edo era Japan) and Great Teacher Onizuka, a sitcom about a former bike gang member who decides to become a teacher (and a damn good one, at that).

Other shows are pure realms of fantasy, and cover a wide range. It is the more fantastic shows that prove popular in the U.S., by a considerable margin.

To me, anime has several basic appeals that first interested me:

1) More sophisticated plots than american cartoons: especially as a child of the 70s/80s, this was so. U.S. fare in the 80s of my late youth was primarily one of 'each toy sold separately'. Compared against the story of a single man waging war against an invading empire while his own planet ignored the danger...well, Thundercats was no 'Captain Harlock'. These days, american cartoons have improved in quality, especially a show like say, Jackie Chan adventures or any of the DC superhero shows.

2) Much better animation. The rise of computers has only changed the bar levels between U.S. animators and Japanese animators. Except for theatrical presentations, the Japanese (and now Koreans) find better ways to get more bang for their buck. They use different techniques to accomplish this, some of which are also artistic at the same time, such as long pan shots and characters lost-in-thought, for example.

The advent of computer technology and 'tweening' has only worsened this trend, as some US animators try to make everything on the cheap. You can see this in many lower budget US shows, and the general poor quality of the animation as a result.

3) Much bigger scope and advancing storylines. Things happen. In an american production, all of the characters have to be on deck and the story moving within fifteen minutes of the start of the pilot. In anime, some of the main characters might not even appear until episode four or five. Over time they change...not just their personalities, but their clothes, their looks...even their allegiences.

Further, animation allows things that would be amazingly expensive to be done with ease. In a live action production, a single fight scene from Hellsing might cost millions. In animation, it doesn't cost anymore to illustrate a character jumping fifty feet in the air and smashing a building with a laser than it doe to show him getting into his car or sitting down to read a book.

4) More mature themes. How many people died in Transformers, excepting the movie? None. In GI Joe, how many people were killed by the cartoonish violence? None. In Star Blazers/Space Cruiser Yamato, how many men died during the battle of Jupiter in the Andromeda fleet? All of them. In Macross, when the Zentraedi decide to eliminate mankind as a threat, 98% of humanity is wiped out. When you're old enough to handle that kind of story-telling, you look at the alternatives and wonder why it seems lackluster, now.

And I'll be honest, when I was younger, seeing things like cursing, violence and nudity was pretty cool in a cartoon. There was a certain vicarous thrill to seeing Maetel get naked...even if it was just to take a bath. :D Never mind that characters drink, smoke and have sex...oh, and carry firearms. :)

Beyond that, much of anime tackles more difficult issues than 'stop the ghost from scaring everyone away from the mine'. Societal pressures; the nature of man, fate and duty; love and honor; and a host of deep topics can suffuse what might otherwise just be simple superheroics can transform a story to deeper meaning. The aforementioned Captain Harlock befriends and safeguards a little girl, often imperiling himself to great risk from her guardians, who use her like a chess pawn to draw Harlock in. Why? Because she's the daughter of his best friend, now dead. Harlock's gunner joins the crew after aliens kill his father, and the government does nothing about it. These just aren't the kinds of things you see in american cartoons.

5. Better acting: This one is ironic in that when I first got into anime, I couldn't understand a jot of Japanese. But the quality of the voice-acting and the obvious intensity of the delivery is what truly makes anime's acting seem so much better. This has changed a lot in recent years, though.

The issue, though, is that in the US, animation is in what I call 'the comedy ghetto'. The Simpsons are succesful, but that's the only way US audiences historically have been offered animation for anyone but children. The assumption is that somehow, more serious content can't be passed on in through the animated format, and that's irritating, when anime fans have seen it done countless times.


Well, that's enough for now. Incidentally, anime has plenty of flaws, too, but you didn't ask for that, and that's an even more personal list than this one.
 
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Ok, so tell me what are some flaws in Anime? :D Hey you asked :)

















2nd what's the appeal of SciFi? I'm kidding! But really what elements of SciFi are appealing?
 

Mallus said:


I couldn't just let this go...

Yes, Legend of the Overfiend should make you feel dirty. There's a lot of horrifc stuff in it. But the same could be said about the movies of Passolini, or less obscurely, films like Last Exit to Brooklyn, or Requiem For a Dream {or any project Harmony Korine is involved with}.

It's most centainly not for everyone, but I found it kinda brilliant. I rememebr the Village Voice called it "not genre-breaking, but genre anihilating". That about sums it up. It mixes genre elements, including hardcore pornography, in a way that I'd never seen before. And haven't since.

It also takes subtext of sexual violence that's been present in horror and sci-fi forever{consider early pulp covers featuring transparent spacesuited women being carried off by bug-eyed monsters}, and brings it to the surface in an explict fashion. I like that confrontational nature.

Overfiend is the kind experience that makes you feel bad for liking it, It had a decent message buried somewhere down in there and the fight scenes were incredible, it's just,......... well it makes the Book of Vile Darkness look like a children's book. I can't really get into even describing how to describe it. And it was a series of movies, ( http://www.f4.fhtw-berlin.de/people/s0338516/uromovs/ ) the second one wasn't as good and I never saw any of the rest but there is a suprising amount of this kind of Anime out there, you can't really call it Hentai, it's sort of like ultraviolent hentai. Here is the review from Anime Meta Review http://www.serc.rmit.edu.au/~ashelton/anime/html/legend_of_the_overfiend_a.html

Please don't take this as a standard example of Anime it is at the far extreme of.... well everything.
 

I have to pretty much concur with WizarDru"s post on what is good about Anime. When you get right down to it Anime is so diversified that it is hard say what is so good about it, Anime covers as broad a area as American TV in general, American cartoons are entertainment for children for the most part, Anime is general TV for everybody. Like Police Drama's well you can find those in Anime, Science Fiction? no problem, Relationship movies, yea got them too.

One of my favorite things is the Sci Fi stuff, lets face it in America there is just so much Sci Fi stuff out there and the majority of it is low budget crap. There is enough Sci Fi anime to match everything done in America 10 times over and most of it is at a higher quality.

Anime flaws, well in general it's all animated, that can be a strength or a flaw depending, but it will always mark it out as different. Second is that there is a huge culture difference from America to Japan, some things just don't transfer well cross-culture.
 

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