Does anyone else think this is a bug in CB?

Of course, that's all irrelevant anyway, because using Dual Implement Spellcaster with a single quarterstaff was never legal by RAW

A Quarterstaff can be a double weapon, which makes it behave as two weapons when used as a weapon.

It is not a double implement, it does not behave as two implements when used as an implement.
DIS requires that you use an implement in EACH hand, not an implement in BOTH hands. This means that (as there is no such thing as a double implement) you must use two implements.
 

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No.

It doesn't say "an amount equal to the enhancement bonus".
It says "enhancement bonus"

An enhancement bonus is not a number, it is an enhancement bonus.

Do you disagree with this statement:
An enhancement bonus is an enhancement bonus]
?

Otherwise, when an implement says that you add it's enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls: well, it doesn't say you add it's enhancement bonus as an enhancement bonus, so it must be an untyped bonus right?
Same with neck slot items clearly...

I had a whole section written here to respond to this, then decided it was wrong and started over because in the end we're fighting over language. What I realized is that we're debating the definition of "Enhancement bonus" as used in the rules text as I will illustrate below.

There are two basic uses of the phrase "enhancement bonus" within the rules and only one use of the word "Enhancement" by itself.

Magic items have a template entry like this:
Enhancment: +x (text here about what the +x adds to such as AC, Fort/Will/Reflex, or attack rolls and damage rolls)

As for "Enhancement bonus" it is used to describe a type (such as PHB p 275 where it talks about bonuses and penalties) and it is also used to describe a quantity (such as PHB p 276 where it talks about possible modifiers to a damage roll and in any magic item where there is a property giving a bonus. As an example a "Dread Weapon" has this:
Property: On a critical hit the target takes the weapon's enhancement bonus as a penality..."

Now penalties are never typed (at least according to PHB 275), but this reference is about the quantity of the penalty and not the type.

Another example is the dreaded "Staff of Ruin"
Property: Whenever you make an attack using this staff, you gain an item bonus to the attack's damage rolls equal to the staff's enhancement bonus.

Again this is clearly referring to the quantity of the bonus because it is clearly declared as an item bonus.

I could argue that because of the lack of a specific declaration of bonus type in DIS that it is therefore untyped, but I'm not sure if that is really any better than your assertion that it's wording means both type and quantity. This way leads down the road of what is an "Attack" and I don't care to have that debate today.

Therefore...I'm with Nifft. It can be read either way by RAW without further errata/FAQ. It should be noted that I still think your reading is incorrect. I'm more inclined to believe that "enhancement bonus" is used as either type OR quantity, but not both at the same time. Hence I have to disagree with your assertion "An enhancement bonus is an enhancement bonus".

Of course, that's all irrelevant anyway, because using Dual Implement Spellcaster with a single quarterstaff was never legal by RAW

A Quarterstaff can be a double weapon, which makes it behave as two weapons when used as a weapon.

It is not a double implement, it does not behave as two implements when used as an implement.
DIS requires that you use an implement in EACH hand, not an implement in BOTH hands. This means that (as there is no such thing as a double implement) you must use two implements.


I already agreed that you should need Staff Fighting to use a staff this way. However, a staff works like any other weaplement. You're treated as having a staff in each hand and since a staff IS a weaplement....well you should know the rest.

Interestingly, CB (which we know is not a rules reference) allows you to get DIS without Staff Fighting if you equip your staff in both hands. Also interesting is that you can get the bonus to spells for two-weapon fighting and two-weapon defense without Staff Fighting. Perhaps staff has some special exceptions we don't know about or maybe it's implements...or maybe CB has some more bugs.
 

I don't think I even get what this discussion is supposed to be about. Is it about the CBs inability to magically rewrite feats to make sense for a particular combination of options?

Unless I've been misreading every post, the CB is completely irrelevant here. This leaves the question: Should every feat be a good choice for a character regardless of the combination of options used?

Theoretically: Sure! Realistically: Of course not. Some feats are plain bad, no matter what, some are good no matter what, some are situationally or snergistically good and some are basically invalidated by other choices. So, what? Pick a different feat and move on.
 

Once you take that phrase out and replace it with it's numeric value you are left with untyped damage.
And in doing that you have changed its meaning. You are taking out the very phrase that clearly states that it is an enhancement bonus and replacing it with a single untyped numeral. Entirely different.

This:
When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add [the off-hand implement's enhancement bonus] to damage rolls.

and this:
When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add [1] to damage rolls.

are the exact same thing.

If we can't agree on that then we have nothing further to discuss.
Those two are so not the same thing. One is a generic formula, the other is an application of that formula. Also, you have deliberately left out the type when you applied the formula. There was nothing in the formula that allowed you to do that, so your application of it isn't even correct.

So we cannot agree on that.
 

I don't think I even get what this discussion is supposed to be about. Is it about the CBs inability to magically rewrite feats to make sense for a particular combination of options?

Unless I've been misreading every post, the CB is completely irrelevant here. This leaves the question: Should every feat be a good choice for a character regardless of the combination of options used?

Theoretically: Sure! Realistically: Of course not. Some feats are plain bad, no matter what, some are good no matter what, some are situationally or snergistically good and some are basically invalidated by other choices. So, what? Pick a different feat and move on.

There are kind of two separate debates going on here. My initial question about why doesn't DIS work with Inherent and the exact meaning of DIS.

@Oldtimer: I really wish you had addressed my comments in post 32. I think that more accurately describes the core debate and the difference between our positions than my previous comments. I think this bit here is the key part:

[the off-hand implement's enhancement bonus]
Your position: Enhancement bonus used in this context means BOTH quantity and the type of bonus granted.
My position: Enhancement bonus used in this context means ONLY quantity.

For more just refer back, but I am not aware of any way in the English language to make a single word have more than one meaning within a sentence.
 

I already agreed that you should need Staff Fighting to use a staff this way. However, a staff works like any other weaplement. You're treated as having a staff in each hand and since a staff IS a weaplement....well you should know the rest.
You're treated as having a weapon (not a staff-implemnt) in each hand.

A staff-primary-end is not an implement.

A staff-secondary-end is not an implement.

A staff as a whole is a single implement.
or maybe CB has some more bugs.
CB has lots of bugs.


DOUBLE WEAPONS
Wielding a double weapon is like wielding a weapon
in each hand.

Note how it says nothing about implements? that's because being a double weapon doesn't affect implement powers.
 
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[the off-hand implement's enhancement bonus]
Your position: Enhancement bonus used in this context means BOTH quantity and the type of bonus granted.
My position: Enhancement bonus used in this context means ONLY quantity.

For more just refer back, but I am not aware of any way in the English language to make a single word have more than one meaning within a sentence.
My weight is not just 82, but 82 kilogram. It would be rather useless to you if I told you just the quantity and not the unit of measure (type). The expression "the off-hand implement's enhancement bonus" parses to both quantity and type. That should be obvious.
 

You're treated as having a weapon (not a staff-implemnt) in each hand.

A staff-primary-end is not an implement.

A staff-secondary-end is not an implement.

A staff as a whole is a single implement.
CB has lots of bugs.

Note how it says nothing about implements? that's because being a double weapon doesn't affect implement powers.

I get it....staff isn't a weapon anymore is that it? Or is it that it isn't an implement? [/sarcasm]

And yes CB has lots of bugs. Wouldn't it be nice if we (the community) could find them...bring them to the attention of CS and get them fixed and in the process maybe get some rules clarified?
 

[the off-hand implement's enhancement bonus]
Your position: Enhancement bonus used in this context means BOTH quantity and the type of bonus granted.
My position: Enhancement bonus used in this context means ONLY quantity.
Can you point to 5 other feats that grant numeric bonuses without calling them bonuses?

Because your position would make DIS one such feat. If other such feats exist, I'll concede that your position on this subject is reasonable (still can't use a staff as two implements though :p)


I get it....staff isn't a weapon anymore is that it? Or is it that it isn't an implement? [/sarcasm]

And yes CB has lots of bugs. Wouldn't it be nice if we (the community) could find them...bring them to the attention of CS and get them fixed and in the process maybe get some rules clarified?
A staff is AN implement.
A double weapon is two WEAPONS


A single quarterstaff is not two implements. Unless you can find some rule stating that it is?

Remember: not all staff-weapons are staff-implements. Only quarterstaffs are staff-implements. This is easy to forget because there are only three types of staff-weapon in existence at present:
Quarterstaff
Quarterstaff-primary-end
Quarterstaff-secondary-end
 
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My weight is not just 82, but 82 kilogram. It would be rather useless to you if I told you just the quantity and not the unit of measure (type). The expression "the off-hand implement's enhancement bonus" parses to both quantity and type. That should be obvious.

"If...blah blah blah, then you can add your weight to damage rolls."

So for this sentence it's important (and makes sense) that it be "82 kilograms" added to damage rolls and not just 82?
 

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