Does anyone else think this is a bug in CB?

[CovertOps]

Nowhere in DMG2 (which is the only rules reference that mentions it) are the inherent bonuses classified as enhancement bonuses. In fact, nowhere in DMG2 are they even called "inherent bonuses." The only place you can find "inherent bonuses" by name is the CB, and the CB implements them as enhancement bonuses.

Keeping that in mind, what's actually being argued about is a roughly outlined house rule in DMG2 that was implemented differently in the CB--which, as we know, isn't a rules reference.

So you'll have to forgive me if I think this debate is a little misguided.

So for what...the 4th time in this thread (starting in post 3 or 4)? I don't own a copy of DMG2 so maybe if someone who does would post the rules blurb on it. Inherent aside, the other debates have been interesting.

 

[CovertOps]

DIS requires you to be wielding two magical implements. This is the core reason why it doesn't work and it is not a bug.

Every time you say this I'm gonna have to start saying that Two-Weapon Fighting requires you to be wielding two magical weapons. It's really getting old. That is not what the rules text says and you need to stop mis-quoting it. "Wielding an implement in each hand" and "Wielding two magical implements" are not the same thing.

This particular point being separate from whether or not Staff Fighting works or not or is even needed for implements.

 

[Aegeri]

Every time you say this I'm gonna have to start saying that Two-Weapon Fighting requires you to be wielding two magical weapons. It's really getting old. That is not what the rules text says and you need to stop mis-quoting it. "Wielding an implement in each hand" and "Wielding two magical implements" are not the same thing.

Oh really?

When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement’s enhancement bonus to damage rolls.

You are precisely right about wielding an implement in each hand and wielding two magical implements are not the same thing. This is because the text of DIS says you must be wielding a magic implement in each hand. Clearly and that's DIS from the compendium I've quoted above. Have you even read the rule you've been relentlessly debating about for the past five pages?

Benefit: While holding a melee weapon in each hand, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with your main weapon.

I don't see the word "magic" anywhere in there. It just says holding a melee weapon, but unlike DIS it says nothing about it being magic.

So who is misquoting what rules and I guess you can say two weapon fighting requires a magic weapon in each hand. You'd be wrong because the rules are absolutely clear of course that you don't.

Once again, you've ignored this point OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

DIS clearly states YOU MUST BE WIELDING A MAGIC IMPLEMENT IN BOTH HANDS.

You are not wielding a magical implement in both hands. Therefore DIS doesn't work and this isn't a bug. As I've pointed out to you as well, inherent bonuses do NOT make your weapons magical whatsover. So DIS will not work with two non-magical implements and DIS with inherent bonuses.

 

[Kingreaper]

So really, the 'quarterstaff is not a staff implement' is completely irrelevant even if it were true, because the staff implement IS a quarterstaff.

Read the definition of a staff implement in PHB1.

A staff implement is a QUARTERSTAFF. It is not any staff group weapon.


When wielding a quarterstaff as a double weapon, how many quarterstaffs are you wielding? ONE

How many staff-weapons are you wielding? Two

But how many quarterstaffs? One.


If I'm wielding a doublesword, how many light blades am I wielding? Two.
How many doubleswords am I wielding? One.

 

[CovertOps]

Oh really?You are precisely right about wielding an implement in each hand and wielding two magical implements are not the same thing. This is because the text of DIS says you must be wielding a magic implement in each hand. Clearly and that's DIS from the compendium I've quoted above. Have you even read the rule you've been relentlessly debating about for the past five pages?

I don't see the word "magic" anywhere in there. It just says holding a melee weapon, but unlike DIS it says nothing about it being magic.

So who is misquoting what rules and I guess you can say two weapon fighting requires a magic weapon in each hand. You'd be wrong because the rules are absolutely clear of course that you don't.

Once again, you've ignored this point OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

DIS clearly states YOU MUST BE WIELDING A MAGIC IMPLEMENT IN BOTH HANDS.

You are not wielding a magical implement in both hands. Therefore DIS doesn't work and this isn't a bug. As I've pointed out to you as well, inherent bonuses do NOT make your weapons magical whatsover. So DIS will not work with two non-magical implements and DIS with inherent bonuses.

First, my apologies. I'm not going back to look, but I haven't debated non-magical implements and DIS in at least 2 pages for lack of anyone willing to type the paragraph or two about inherent from DMG2. What we have been debating is if a magical staff + Staff Fighting + DIS works or doesn't work or if Staff Fighting is even needed.

That said...I reiterate your quote "DIS requires you to be wielding two magical implements". This is neither the direct rules quote OR proven so please stop trying to represent it as fact. I note that you neatly rephrase to the correct rules text above.

 

[Kingreaper]

I have noticed something that should appease those who want to cheese DIS by using only one expensive implement:

If you have a +6 in your main hand, and a +1 in your off hand, you get +7 to damage.

If you have a +1 in your main hand, and a +6 in your off hand, you get (assuming you can add the same implement twice, which those who wish to use the staff clearly do) +12 to damage.

It adds your offhand implement's bonus. No rule exists stating that you have to wield the weaker implement in the offhand. You can wield the +6 in the offhand perfectly happily.

 

[CovertOps]

Read the definition of a staff implement in PHB1.

A staff implement is a QUARTERSTAFF. It is not any staff group weapon.

Really. That's what you're going to argue. You should try checking your references.

Staff (PHB 240)
A staff is a shaft... Unlike other implements, a staff also functions as a melee weapon (treat it as a quarterstaff). When used in melee, a staff applies its enhancement bonus and critical damage dice just as a weapon does.

The rest talks about having to be the right class to take advantage of the implement features of a staff.

When wielding a quarterstaff as a double weapon, how many quarterstaffs are you wielding? ONE

Yes

How many staff-weapons are you wielding? Two

One.

But how many quarterstaffs? One.

Yes

If I'm wielding a doublesword, how many light blades am I wielding? Two.

One.

How many doubleswords am I wielding? One.

Yes.
AV Errata including the complete double weapon rules sidebar
http://wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateAV.pdf

Of note it says

• You must wield a double weapon in two hands to use it.
• Wielding a double weapon is like wielding a weapon in each hand.
• An enchanted double weapon gains all benefits of the enchantment on each end (even if one end would not normally qualify for the enchantment).

Note that it does not say "You are wielding two weapons".

 

[Kingreaper]

Really. That's what you're going to argue. You should try checking your references.

Staff (PHB 240)
A staff is a shaft... Unlike other implements, a staff also functions as a melee weapon (treat it as a quarterstaff). When used in melee, a staff applies its enhancement bonus and critical damage dice just as a weapon does.

The rest talks about having to be the right class to take advantage of the implement features of a staff.

Note the "treat is as a quarterstaff"

A staff implement isn't any staff weapon other than a quarterstaff. Even if you can treat a quarterstaff as a staff weapon in each hand you cannot treat it as a quarterstaff in each hand.

Note that it does not say "You are wielding two weapons".

If you aren't even wielding two weapons, you certainly aren't wielding an implement in each hand. If you're just treated like having a weapon in each hand, you're NOT being treated like you have an implement in each hand.

 

[CovertOps]

I have noticed something that should appease those who want to cheese DIS by using only one expensive implement:

If you have a +6 in your main hand, and a +1 in your off hand, you get +7 to damage.

If you have a +1 in your main hand, and a +6 in your off hand, you get (assuming you can add the same implement twice, which those who wish to use the staff clearly do) +12 to damage.

It adds your offhand implement's bonus. No rule exists stating that you have to wield the weaker implement in the offhand. You can wield the +6 in the offhand perfectly happily.

I agree with you about that being cheese and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't allow it, but consider.

Who needs more than one weapon or implement?

• Two Weapon Ranger (exception - Paired Weapons)
• Casters (DIS)
• One Barbarian build (exception - Paired Weapons)
• A Fighter build (exception - Paired Weapons)
• Rogue to a lesser degree (Rapier melee/dagger thrown?)

I'm sure I've missed a few, but frankly those builds are at a disadvantage to anyone who only needs one weapon or implement.

I started this thread because my caster(s) were doing less than 1/3 the damage of my bow Ranger. That's 1/3 for crying out loud. That is a HUGE difference. Now I accept that a Bow Ranger is probably always going to be top tier in damage (twin strike and all), but there is something wrong with this so I started investigating. Among the players I found varying levels of optimization and in some cases some very poor item choices. The casters were the hardest to help because I just couldn't find much to bring them up other than DIS, Staff of Ruin, and some of the other standard feats such as weapon focus etc.

So complain about casters if you like, but as another poster said up thread..."Weapon users are king of damage and casters can't really come close" or pretty close to that. So frankly anything I can do to help them out.

 

[CovertOps]

Note the "treat is as a quarterstaff"

A staff implement isn't any staff weapon other than a quarterstaff. Even if you can treat a quarterstaff as a staff weapon in each hand you cannot treat it as a quarterstaff in each hand.

If you aren't even wielding two weapons, you certainly aren't wielding an implement in each hand. If you're just treated like having a weapon in each hand, you're NOT being treated like you have an implement in each hand.

The "Staff" weapon group has but ONE weapon in it. Guess what that is.

To reiterate:

Staff Fighting: You can treat the quarterstaff as a double weapon.
PHB Errata:
Using an Implement as a Weapon: Most implements cannot be used as weapons. However, an implement like the staff is expressly usable as both an implement and a weapon.
Double weapons: Wielding a double weapon is like wielding a weapon in each hand.
(Basically you are wielding the staff in each hand)

Since you are now wielding a staff in each hand and a staff is an implement, you are wielding an implement in each hand.

If this was intended or not is of course hard to say.