Does being invis stop AoO?

[Phule]

Per the DMG, pg. 78

"A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 ft with a Spot check (DC 20). The observer gains a hunch that "something's there" but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is practically impossible to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, or an unliving creature holding still is even harder to spot (DC 40). It's practically imposible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible character's position with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds at such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (50% miss chance).

A creature can use hearing to find invisible creatures. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature's Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies). A successful Listen check lets a character hear an invisible creature "over there somewhere". It's practically impossible to pinpoint the exact location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 reveals the invisible creature's location."

and there's lots more there...


I would think that an AOO would only be allowable if the attacker can pinpoint the location of the creature (by whatever means). And the invisible creature would still get the 50% concealment bonus.

Phule

 

[Andion Isurand]

What about the size of the invisible creature potentially provoking the AoO?

Obviously an invisible halfling is going to be a lot harder for a human to hit than just the +1 bonus to AC the halfling gets for being of small size.

How is this handled?

 

[Phule]

I would think that the size adjustment bonus would be the same....if the attacker gets past the 50% concealment, then he would still have to hit the target normally, as if the target was visible.

I don't think that there should be any additional penalties, since the attacker already had to make a HUGE DC check to pinpoint the invisible target in the first place, and made it past the concealment.

Phule

 

[jontherev]

Oh I know it can happen and why (I just hadn't seen it in my games so I didn't consider it), but it does sink the argument that it's just an extra attack getting through rather than the attacker exploiting a weakness. Since the attacker chooses, then he must be aware of the weakness, and if he can't see the weakness then how can he choose to exploit it?

IceBear

Exactly. Since you can do stuff like grapple or trip with an AoO, the AoO is definitely NOT a series of feints and wild swings that happen to get through when his defenses are down. To get an AoO vs. an invisible foe next to you drinking a potion, you must
make a Listen check to notice him doing that (even if you didn't know he was there, you can still hear someone pulling a potion out, uncorking it, and gulping). Depending on how high that check result is, you may or may not have guessed the right square. The Listen check to notice the potion-drinking should be lower than the one to detect his presence initially. Check the DMG section on Invisibility. So, the answer is MAYBE.

 

[Stalker0]

That's because you're looking at AoO as a function of the attacker? You're attacking someone who is invisible.
IceBear

While the AOO is provoked by the defender, it also depends upon the condition of the attacker. If the attacker is flat footed, using a ranged weapon, his hands are bound, etc, then no AOO is made because the attacker doesn't have what he needs to make one. I also think that includes the ability to perceive a weakness so you can make an AOO. As was said, the attacker must choose to make an AOO, which means he must have knowledge that one is provoked, its not just random chance.

 

[IceBear]

While the AOO is provoked by the defender, it also depends upon the condition of the attacker. If the attacker is flat footed, using a ranged weapon, his hands are bound, etc, then no AOO is made because the attacker doesn't have what he needs to make one. I also think that includes the ability to perceive a weakness so you can make an AOO. As was said, the attacker must choose to make an AOO, which means he must have knowledge that one is provoked, its not just random chance.

I know Stalker - I changed my opinion if you read above. It's just that someone else described an AoO like that back at a time when I was grappling with AoO against invisible people and it clicked with me (but I had completely forgotten that the attacker chooses to take the AoO or not). Once that was pointed out in this thread, I've switched sides in this debate

IceBear

 

[robaustin]

I think also you need to take into consideration if invisibility was cast before or after the melee began. If an invisible person walks into a room with their party and melee ensues. The other party cannot determine there is an invisible party to attack UNTIL the invisible person actually attacks. THEN and only then can they have a chance to hit them, and only if they were hit themselves by the invisible person, or succeeded in a listen check to hear a "miss" of some kind. So taking that into consideration I don't think you get an AOO on an invisible person until you are aware of their presence.

It does get complicated, but it's more realistic that way.

Once they have hit, the party that was hit has a chance to guess at where the invisible person is, and so on....

--*Rob

 

[LokiDR]

I don't believe you can take an AoO on an invisible person wether or not you know there is an invisible person there unless you
a) know the invisble person is present
b) know the 5' square the invisible person is in
c) know the invisible is doing something that provokes an AoO

The AoO would suffer from 50% miss chance regardless.

This means, with some listen checks, you might get to AoO a person casting a spell, but would almost never get to AoO a person who was grappling, because you would need to know about it before the result actually happens.

Robaustin, your case only covers part of these needs. I don't think this is too complicated. What is the listen DC to pinpoint a person to a square? If the person can't possibly make it, you don't even have to worry about this.

 

[BlackBart]

This means, with some listen checks, you might get to AoO a person casting a spell, but would almost never get to AoO a person who was grappling, because you would need to know about it before the result actually happens.
[/B]

I've pointed this out before, but, whether or not you know they are casting a spell is just about irrelevant, because you have no way of knowing if they are casting on the defensive.

DM: You hear someone casting a spell right next to you.
Player: I take my AoO.
DM: Not so fast slick, he's casting on the defensive, but go ahead and mark of that AoO for the round - you missed.

 

[Tamarack]

As Ice Bear said above (sorry, I don't know how to re-insert other's posts) the AoO is provoked by something the defender is doing. In all PHB examples of what provokes an AoO the common thread is that the defender is defending himself less diligently, i.e. casting, fleeing, etc. An invisible foe is presumably not being attacked, therefore does not have to devote too much effort to defense. So isn't defending less diligently when doing something that provokes an AoO, he wasn't defending at all. Now if the attacker had already attempted to launch attacks at the invisible character (guessing sqaures, rolling miss chance, etc.) then the invis guy might start provoking AoO, but not before.

Hey Leopold - why do you care? I'm the only arcane caster in your group, and I don't know the spell. Oh wait...that's not very nice. I want to change my opinion.