D&D General Does D&D (and RPGs in general) Need Edition Resets?

[mamba]

No, I want to claim the first five. The last five looks very much like a slow tail-off, and people are confusing otherwise because they're taking certain statements at face value you should never take at face value when provided by any company.

such as? growth rate?

I’d like you to lay it out, right now it sounds like ‘I can get the math to work if I ignore what WotC says’ to me. Also, 5 years is a pretty long initial phase already, not sure you are justified in claiming more than 3, so I’d like you to make that case as well

Finally, don’t forget that no growth in PHB sales still means there were as many new players this year as last…

 

[mamba]

They seem to have an aversion to publishing anything that you would want or need any material beyond the core three to use properly. This wasn't the case pre-5e, so it seems to be a relatively new phenomenon.

that seems to be true, but they released some setting books regardless, even if they are optional to the adventures they publish in those settings

 

[mamba]

Let's say someone buys Planescape, Tashas, and Fizbans now.

What's going to make them buy those three books again in 2027 if the rules barely change

nothing at all, why do you think WotC wants them to buy them a second time? That clearly is not the strategy they are pursuing.

The new books would have to come out with new content. Such as being high level and in the broken stages of 5e. Or reveal new subclasses or races that WOTC already struggles with. Or create new classes that WOTC is hesitant to do. Or pump out new monsters with new tactical or narrative aspects.

yes, new crunch books require new content, not a surprise

There is no way you are going to use the same rules skeleton for 20 or 30 or 40 years without bloat. New classes. New Subclasses. Now Monsters. New Traps. New Races. New Obstacles. New variants. New settings. Every year.

there very much is, I doubt I would if there were new crunch books every year however, and 5e seems to be doing just fine with a much lower frequency

 

[Lanefan]

What should it look like? (Well, these points are from me, a random middle-aged dude on the Internet who is only a part-time designer. This is based only on what I'm gathering running for teenagers.)

• Gamify background and story - make it more significant to the game
• Speed up advancement to run a full 1-20 level campaign in 9-12 months
• Make classes better able to operate outside their structure (for example, allow *good healing outside of clerics/druids - because every party configuration should be able to accommodate the unique play desires of the group)
• Give good rules for travel and other montage-based encounters (to allow groups to get to the "big scenes" of action and roleplay)

Designing for teenagers (or younger!) is a fool's errand: they tend on average to have the attention span of chickens and - as noted in the quote - thus want a faster-paced and faster-running game BUT this same lack of attention span means that after that very short 9-12 month campaign is done they're liable to stop playing entirely and move on to something else. Hardly a good means of ensuring the long-term health and continuation of either the game or the company producing it; and even if a few of those teenagers end up becoming lifers, it's not enough.

And in the meantime, we have a game that's badly-designed for the rest of us.

All that said, designing a discrete sub-version of the main game ("Fast Five?") that's specifically intended to be played through in a school year does make sense. Just don't make that the game's primary design.

 

[Lanefan]

Adding races, classes and subclasses every 2 years is too slow to many money.

That's what I'm saying.

After the initial PHB with 8+ races 10-13 class, MM, DMG...

you need a minimum of 3 crunch books every 2 years to sustain hype.

Disagree.

You need a minumum of three really good adventures and-or setting books per year to sustain hype and interest.

Your model really screws those who get in six years later and instead of buying three books to get started, have to buy (6x3=) 18. They ain't gonna do that, and thus won't join the customer base.

With my model (core three to start plus settings and adventures to follow*), those late adopters still only need the core three to get going and can then pick and choose from the subsequent settings and adventures; and you desperately need those late adopters in your customer base if only to replace those early adopters who have fallen off along the way.

* - plus a few clearly-labelled optional crunch add-ons that aren't really necessary in order to play the game.

 

[Lanefan]

That tends to line up with my experiences too. Players tend to buy accessories like dice, dice trays, miniatures. I think the DDB and VTT will be able to hit this market digitally.

My perhaps-hopeful guess is that forcing players to pay for DDB/VTT will cause a mass exodus.

 

[Minigiant]

Only way I see an incremental RPG with no resets being a major RPG

• YEAR 1
  • PHB
    • -8 Races
    • -12 classes
    • -48 subclasses
    • -20+ Feats
    • - A whole lotta spells
  • MM
    • hundreds of common monsters
  • DMG
    • 1 races
    • 2 Subclasses
  • Adventure book 1
  • FR Setting book
• YEAR 2
  • Adventure Book 2
  • Adventure Book 3
  • Setting Book 2
    • -Short Adventure
    • -some feats
    • -some spells
    • -1-2 subclasses or 1 class
  • Setting Book 3
    • Short Adventure
    • -some feats
    • -some spells
    • -1-2 races
  • Supplement Book 1
    • some feats
    • 1-3 races
    • 1-2 subclasses or 1 class
    • 5-12 spells
    • Buncha monsters
• YEAR 3
  • Adventure Book 4
  • Adventure Book 5
  • Setting Book 4
    • Short Adventure
    • some feats
    • some spells
    • 1-2 subclasses or class
  • Setting Book 5
    • Short Adventure
    • some feats
    • some spells
    • 1-2 races
  • Supplement Book 2
    • some feats
    • 1-3 races
    • 1-2 subclasses
    • 5-12 spells
    • Buncha monsters
• YEAR 4
  • Adventure Book 6
  • Adventure Book 7
  • Setting Book 6
    • -Short Adventure
    • -some feats
    • -some spells
    • -1-2 subclasses, 1 class, and/or 1-2 races
  • Mega Supplement Book 1
    • -1-2 subclasses for each class (some reprints)
    • -6-10 Races (some reprints)
    • -A dozen or so spells
    • -1-3 major variant rules
    • -A ton of monsters/traps/obstacles
• YEAR 5 (Same as Year 2)
• YEAR 6 (Same as Year 3)
• YEAR 7 (Same as Year 5)
• YEAR 8 (Same as Year 2)
• YEAR 9 (Same as Year 3)
• YEAR 10
  • PHB
    • ~12 Races
    • ~15 classes
    • ~48 subclasses
      • Quarter of which are new
    • ~20+ Feats
    • A whole lotta spells
  • MM
    • hundreds of common monsters
    • A few uncommon monsters
  • DMG
    • 1 race
    • 2 Subclasses
    • 1-3 Major variant rules
• YEAR 11 (Same as Year 2)
• YEAR 12 (Same as Year 3)
• YEAR 13 (Same as Year 5)
• YEAR 14 (Same as Year 2)
• YEAR 15 (Same as Year 3)
• YEAR 16 (Same as Year 5)
• YEAR 17 (Same as Year 2)
• YEAR 18 (Same as Year 3)
• YEAR 19 (Same as Year 5)
• YEAR 20 (Same as Year 10)
• YEAR 21 (Same as Year 3)
• YEAR 22 (Same as Year 5)
• etc

 

[Lanefan]

Finally, don’t forget that no growth in PHB sales still means there were as many new players this year as last…

More, in fact; as there's also secondhand sales/gifts/transfers of PHBs to consider and WotC don't see those in their data.

 

[payn]

My perhaps-hopeful guess is that forcing players to pay for DDB/VTT will cause a mass exodus.

I dont think they will force anybody. They will just make the book items available online for folks who prefer them. Which these days is many.

 

[Minigiant]

Disagree.

You need a minumum of three really good adventures and-or setting books per year to sustain hype and interest.

Your model really screws those who get in six years later and instead of buying three books to get started, have to buy (6x3=) 18. They ain't gonna do that, and thus won't join the customer base.

With my model (core three to start plus settings and adventures to follow*), those late adopters still only need the core three to get going and can then pick and choose from the subsequent settings and adventures; and you desperately need those late adopters in your customer base if only to replace those early adopters who have fallen off along the way.

* - plus a few clearly-labelled optional crunch add-ons that aren't really necessary in order to play the game.

I agree with you.
I was only taking about crunch books at the time.

But I'd go with 2 adventures, 2 settings, and 1 supplement a year minimum.
Except for the big supplement like XGTE/TCOE then you cut a setting book that year.
And that's with 1 new class every other year.
3 subclasses* every year.
And 3-6 races* every year
And that's minimum.

* averaged in with the big supplement