Does Healing Word require a Healing Surge? Forked Thread: Ranger beasts

Milambus

First Post
Forked from: Ranger beasts

Of course not. To be more clear, if you can't/don't spend a surge you get no healing at all. You could still be healed by powers that don't include surges, like spending an AP near an inspiring warlord, or standing in the healing sun zone mentioned above.

Actually, the way Healing Word is worded I would have to rule that it works even if the target does not spend a healing surge, whether they have one to spend or not.

Effect: The target can spend a healing surge and regain an additional 1d6 hit points.

The effect lines states that the target CAN spend a healing surge, not that they are required to. Further, it does not require that the healing surge be spent for the additional 1d6 hit points to be healed.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Nahat Anoj

First Post
I play it such that if you don't have any surges left, you don't benefit from the various Holy/Inspiring/Majestic/whatever words. But because I feel like parsing rules ... ;)

Effect: The target can spend a healing surge and regain an additional 1d6 hit points.
The the key word in this rule IMO is "and." It creates the condition that the additional hit points are linked to the act of spending the healing surge. If the target spends a healing surge (provided they have one to spend), they get extra hp. If you don't (or can't) spend a healing surge, you don't get any hps back because "and" creates a conditional relationship between the two events (spending the surge, gaining the additional hp).

If the target got the 1d6 hit points even without the surge, the effect would have been written as "The target can spend a healing surge. The target also heals 1d6 hit points." The way this is worded, the two events (spending the surge, getting the additional hp) are not linked.
 

abyssaldeath

First Post
The effect lines states that the target CAN spend a healing surge, not that they are required to. Further, it does not require that the healing surge be spent for the additional 1d6 hit points to be healed.


The CAN is there because you can not force you ally to heal himself. If he doesn't spend a healing surge he gets no HP. The only exception to this rule is if he is dying and he doesn't have any surges left he gets 1 HP(PHB pg.295).
 


DracoSuave

First Post
You cannot add additional bonuses onto a non-existant quantity.

So if I have a power that says 'Attack with this attack, dealing 5 additional damage' you don't get to deal the damage if you miss, because it's damage added onto the attack. (Notice: Resources Presence is precedent.)


So you have a power that says 'Do X, and gain additional Y' the Y adds on to the X, and is not a separate event. Spending a healing surge is the X, and without that spending, no healing happens for Y to add to.

Another example of this is Healing Lore adds on additional healing, but if they don't spend a healing surge for Cure Light Wounds, you don't get the Lore points.
 


Milambus

First Post
I have always played that the surge must be spent for any healing to occur also, however a post in the forked thread spurred me to actually read the power's description more carefully.

And I'm fully willing to admit that this is rules parsing at its best/worst =)

So, it's free unless they want to pay? Is that your contention?

No, if they do not spend the Healing surge they still would not gain the healing from the surge itself, but they could gain the additional healing from the power being used.

Example #1:
Healing Word cast, target spends a surge, target regains:
Surge value + 1d6 + Caster's WIS modifier (+ any other bonuses) hit points

Example #2:
Heaing Word cast, target choices not to spend a healing surge, target regains:
1d6 + Caster's WIS modifier (+ any other bonuses) hit points

In the second example the target gains the same benefit as in the first, except he does not gain the HPs from the surge itself.

And of course, in either case the Cleric has still spent one of his uses of Healing Word for that encounter.

To me, the "and" and "additional" would link the 1d6 to the Healing Surge.

I can certainly understand why you would read it this way, I have always done so before today myself. However, are we sure this is the correct reading for the power?

Perhaps I'm too much of a programmer, but this is what I see when I really parse the effect line:

Effect: The target can spend a healing surge and regain an additional 1d6 hit points.

"The target can spend a healing surge" The target can spend a surge to regain some hps. They are not required to spend it though. So they can gain either their surge value in HP or 0 HP.

"and" This means "in addition to to previous action do this".

"regain an additional 1d6 hit points." The target regains more HPs in addition to the HPs they gained from the prior action (of spending a surge or not.)

I can see how the use of the word "additional" causes some problems, however adding 1d6 to 0 would still be 1d6.

I play it such that if you don't have any surges left, you don't benefit from the various Holy/Inspiring/Majestic/whatever words. But because I feel like parsing rules ...

I have always played it this way also, but I as I said above I was inspired to reread (and heavily parse) the power again today. And truthfully, I was surprised when I was able to read the power the way I am now.

The the key word in this rule IMO is "and." It creates the condition that the additional hit points are linked to the act of spending the healing surge. If the target spends a healing surge (provided they have one to spend), they get extra hp. If you don't (or can't) spend a healing surge, you don't get any hps back because "and" creates a conditional relationship between the two events (spending the surge, gaining the additional hp).

To me, the use of the word "and" simply means that the power has two effects, A and B. In this case A is "can spend a healing surge" and B is "regain an additional 1d6 hit points." Neither effect are dependant upon the other effect. "Additional" is used in B simply to clarify that the HPs regained from B to not replace ths HPs gained from spending the healing surge (A), such as in a Healing Potion or powers like the Paladin's Lay On Hands.

If the target got the 1d6 hit points even without the surge, the effect would have been written as "The target can spend a healing surge. The target also heals 1d6 hit points." The way this is worded, the two events (spending the surge, getting the additional hp) are not linked.

I agree that would make it more clear. However, if the designers intention was the require the spending of the healing surge to gain the additional 1d6 they should have probably written the power more like "The target can spend a healing surge. If they do, they gain an additional 1d6 hit points." The way this is worded, the two effects are clearly linked. =)

You cannot add additional bonuses onto a non-existant quantity.

Sure you can.

0 + X = X

So if I have a power that says 'Attack with this attack, dealing 5 additional damage' you don't get to deal the damage if you miss, because it's damage added onto the attack. (Notice: Resources Presence is precedent.)

Attack powers have a clear seperation between thing that require the attack to land (listed as "Hit") and those that happen regardless if the attack lands ("Effect" lines).

RESOURCEFUL PRESENCE
Appears in Martial Power
When an ally who can see you spends an action point to take an extra action and uses the action to make an attack, that attack gains a bonus to damage equal to one-half your level + your Intelligence modifier. If the attack hits no target, the ally gains temporary hit points equal to one-half your level + your Charisma modifier.

Hmm, this is an interesting case. In fact I've gone back and forth on this a few times already since reading it. But for now I'm gonna weasel my way out, and point out the fact that Resourceful Presence says it gives a "bonus" and bonuses are defined in PHB.

So you have a power that says 'Do X, and gain additional Y' the Y adds on to the X, and is not a separate event. Spending a healing surge is the X, and without that spending, no healing happens for Y to add to.

This is not how the effect line of Haling Surge is worded though. In fact the way you state the power does not make Y dependant upon X.

Another example of this is Healing Lore adds on additional healing, but if they don't spend a healing surge for Cure Light Wounds, you don't get the Lore points.

Cure Light Wounds does not require the spending of a healing surge, so I assume you meant Healing Word or some other power that does.

HEALER'S LORE
Your study of healing allows you to make the most of your healing prayers. When you grant healing with one of your cleric powers that has the healing keyword, add your Wisdom modifier to the hit points the recipient regains.

All this requires is that the power being used is a Cleric power, and that the power have the "Healing" keyword. Nothing more. So, yes even if the target of a Healing Word did not spend a healing surge they would still gain the clerics WIS modifier HPs.
 

cmbarona

First Post
Well, from a programming point of view, "and" indicates that BOTH must occur. It's not "or," which no one is implying, or "and/or," which seems to be the the case you're implying.
A and B = both must occur or none occur.
A or B = either, but not both, occur.
A and/or B = both can happen; either can happen; it doesn't really matter.
 

Kordeth

First Post
I have always played that the surge must be spent for any healing to occur also, however a post in the forked thread spurred me to actually read the power's description more carefully.

And I'm fully willing to admit that this is rules parsing at its best/worst =)

D&D is not written in programmer speak or legalese. You're not supposed to parse rules down to the individual word. As a general guideline, if you have to argue about AND/OR statements and conditional events, you're probably interpreting it wrong.

I can certainly understand why you would read it this way, I have always done so before today myself. However, are we sure this is the correct reading for the power?

Perhaps I'm too much of a programmer, but this is what I see when I really parse the effect line:

Effect: The target can spend a healing surge and regain an additional 1d6 hit points.

"The target can spend a healing surge" The target can spend a surge to regain some hps. They are not required to spend it though. So they can gain either their surge value in HP or 0 HP.

"and" This means "in addition to to previous action do this".

"regain an additional 1d6 hit points." The target regains more HPs in addition to the HPs they gained from the prior action (of spending a surge or not.)

I can see how the use of the word "additional" causes some problems, however adding 1d6 to 0 would still be 1d6.

Yes, we're certain. :) Again, D&D 4E is written in plain language, not programmerese. If the intent of the power were as you described, it would be worded explicitly to say that: "The target heals 1d6 points of damage and may spend a healing surge." Note that there are powers in which spending a healing surge is an option which is not a requirement for the other effects to take place (e.g. Healing Strike inflicts 2[W] + Str damage whether or not one ally can spend a healing surge), and they're all worded that way: "[Effect happens] and target can spend a healing surge."
 

Split the Hoard


Split the Hoard
Negotiate, demand, or steal the loot you desire!

A competitive card game for 2-5 players
Remove ads

Top